Yeah, and you see that in synths like Kick and Serum, and it may just be that our CPUs just aren't powerful enough yet to emulate the bursts of harmonic density needed to emulate real world transients. I don't know.fluffy_little_something wrote:I read somewhere that the critical attack stage is why Roland started to use samples for attack, like on the D-50 if I remember correctly.
Transients and the next generation of synths
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 551 posts since 28 Jul, 2011 from USA
- KVRian
- 592 posts since 15 Dec, 2000 from Montreal, Canada
For more hard-nosed reality: nature is the boss of chaos, not us or our software. That very same chaotic agitation of harmonics which tells us in an instant whether the sound is a plucked violin or a drop of water. And the very same chaos that we still have so much to learn from. That's why there's still no synthesized transient that can match an acoustic/natural one for richness/relief/depth. But don't let me be a party pooper.
My website: https://www.lesynth.com/
- KVRAF
- 2465 posts since 6 Jul, 2013
Wow, well done peeps - we've just invented the D50...
On a more serious note - FM synths, programmed well, can get closer to that large build up of transient harmonic information, which is one of the reasons they excel at those plucky, acoustic-type patches.
On a more serious note - FM synths, programmed well, can get closer to that large build up of transient harmonic information, which is one of the reasons they excel at those plucky, acoustic-type patches.
- KVRist
- 455 posts since 31 May, 2013 from Space is the Place
Interesting thread.
One thing I noticed when I got my Domino is how sharp and crisp the transients are
A marked contrast to any of the VSTI synths I've so far used
One thing I noticed when I got my Domino is how sharp and crisp the transients are
A marked contrast to any of the VSTI synths I've so far used
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- KVRAF
- 6165 posts since 26 Sep, 2003 from right here, as you can see ...
_now_ you guys come up with this .
when i was moaning about the loss of knowledge/importance of envelope shapes and their direct impact on sound back in the early softsynth days, i was left ununderstood to the point i gave up... finally folks seem to grasp the importance...
there´s even synthedit/synthmaker synths that could have been quite good, if only the env shapes wouldn´t be linear or even shaped wrong... i really hope that the developers finally broadly get on the train with this issue.
when i was moaning about the loss of knowledge/importance of envelope shapes and their direct impact on sound back in the early softsynth days, i was left ununderstood to the point i gave up... finally folks seem to grasp the importance...
there´s even synthedit/synthmaker synths that could have been quite good, if only the env shapes wouldn´t be linear or even shaped wrong... i really hope that the developers finally broadly get on the train with this issue.
regards,
brok landers
BIGTONEsounddesign
gear is as good as the innovation behind it-the man
brok landers
BIGTONEsounddesign
gear is as good as the innovation behind it-the man
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Perimeter Sound Perimeter Sound https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=162713
- KVRAF
- 1744 posts since 11 Oct, 2007
- KVRAF
- 25305 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
It is in part a cpu issue... modulators generally run at control rate (not audio rate) to save cpu... and oscillators are off unless turned on by a key press (to save cpu)... the Osc has to turn on, and to prevent a click it is smoothed a bit.Greg Houston wrote:And it's specifically transient synthesis that I would like to see become common place in synthesizers to compliment the oscillator, sub, and noise modules. I think you've clearly stated the issue.Ned Bouhalassa wrote:Are we discussing transients or envelopes? Transients are, AFAIK, the thousands of harmonics that are excited for a very short time in acoustic contexts. You can try to recreate this magic by increasing noise/harmonics during the attack, but an envelope does not add harmonic content that is not there to begin with.
So in software, Bazille can have lovely transients cause lots of the modulation is at audio rate... Aalto is another example...
- KVRian
- 592 posts since 15 Dec, 2000 from Montreal, Canada
IMHO, the real issue is that we still can't reproduce/synthesize the true complexity of acoustic transients. It's a humbling thing and a reminder that there are still mysterious aspects of our sound world to be fully explored.
My website: https://www.lesynth.com/
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Richard_Synapse Richard_Synapse https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=245936
- KVRian
- 1136 posts since 20 Dec, 2010
DUNE 2 allows you to activate audio rate modulation, then all modulators are processed at audio rate, even MSEGs. We specifically added that for transient shaping, very useful for kicks and other percussive sounds that require exact control of the transients (& since such sounds are typically monophonic, CPU is not an issue).pdxindy wrote:It is in part a cpu issue... modulators generally run at control rate (not audio rate) to save cpu... and oscillators are off unless turned on by a key press (to save cpu)... the Osc has to turn on, and to prevent a click it is smoothed a bit.
Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
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fluffy_little_something fluffy_little_something https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=281847
- Banned
- 12880 posts since 5 Jun, 2012
Several people have said that. But I am not so sure. A compressor might change the sound in an indiscriminate way and thus not help recreate a given instrument with its typical transients. A compressor can only manipulate what is already there.Perimeter Sound wrote:Synths with built-in compressor fx help overcome this limitation no ?
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- KVRAF
- 6165 posts since 26 Sep, 2003 from right here, as you can see ...
a buildt in compressor can never overcome this problem, as usually it´s not polyphonic. it´s the env design that has to be designed to be able to deliver. that easy.fluffy_little_something wrote:Several people have said that. But I am not so sure. A compressor might change the sound in an indiscriminate way and thus not help recreate a given instrument with its typical transients. A compressor can only manipulate what is already there.Perimeter Sound wrote:Synths with built-in compressor fx help overcome this limitation no ?
regards,
brok landers
BIGTONEsounddesign
gear is as good as the innovation behind it-the man
brok landers
BIGTONEsounddesign
gear is as good as the innovation behind it-the man
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- KVRAF
- 1504 posts since 20 Feb, 2003
There's two different issues being discussed. Basic envelope shapes, and the influence of components like VCA's (and other signal levels set within the synth) acting on them.brok landers wrote:a buildt in compressor can never overcome this problem, as usually it´s not polyphonic. it´s the env design that has to be designed to be able to deliver. that easy.
Yes it's frustrating to see so many synths adhere to a hardware ADSR paradigm which needlessly limits the ability to shape sounds. Computer screens make it easy to create complex envelope shapes just through drawing or offering multiple spline points and adjustable curves between the points. We need more of this and less of "ADSR".
The separate issue is the influence of other levels on envelope perception (where terms like analogue punch, or "weight" are commonly used). Here compression can act to mask differences, but shouldn't be considered a "proper" solution for a modeled emulation etc.
If you think people had their work cut out to understand why basic shape is important, what prospect those differences?
- KVRist
- 78 posts since 4 Jan, 2012 from USA
Sylenth still has the snappiest envelopes of any softsynth I've tried IMO
Even synths where you can adjust the envelope curves don't seem quite there (Zebra, Alchemy, Serum, etc)
Even synths where you can adjust the envelope curves don't seem quite there (Zebra, Alchemy, Serum, etc)
Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true
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- KVRAF
- 10260 posts since 19 Feb, 2004 from Paris
Serious confusion in this thread. Transcient relates to harmonic content and therefore sound sources/oscillators. While envelopes, as pictured in this thread, ie tied to gain, relate to volume-VCA/time handling.
I know many synths that can have as snappy/clicky attacks as you need. With, or without, curve editing capabilities.
I know much less synths for example that have modulatable EV segments. This is almost more important for me now than adjustable curves. Self modulation ( as in VCA-EV modulates VCA-EV-Decay time ) leads to interesting modulations. Velocity/EV-Segments, or KB Scaling-release for example ) also leads to new territories, and is the key to many really expressive and sophisticated PLAYABLE presets. Ymmv.
xx-AxDxSxR-xx enveloppes, and their multiple variants, are here for a reason : They are easy to tweak, and result is easily predictable for users. They also echo KB playing techniques ( note on, of, gate ) in the minimal, but complete, way. I know certain synths with MSEG envelopes that take ages to tweak. So sometimes less is more, especially ..... when you dont need more. This doesnt mean that sophisticated modulators are not heavily desired for certain sounds. But they are thousands of ways to make extremely sophisticated modulations, that, btw, contribute to the uniqueness of some synths. Ymmv.
I know many synths that can have as snappy/clicky attacks as you need. With, or without, curve editing capabilities.
I know much less synths for example that have modulatable EV segments. This is almost more important for me now than adjustable curves. Self modulation ( as in VCA-EV modulates VCA-EV-Decay time ) leads to interesting modulations. Velocity/EV-Segments, or KB Scaling-release for example ) also leads to new territories, and is the key to many really expressive and sophisticated PLAYABLE presets. Ymmv.
xx-AxDxSxR-xx enveloppes, and their multiple variants, are here for a reason : They are easy to tweak, and result is easily predictable for users. They also echo KB playing techniques ( note on, of, gate ) in the minimal, but complete, way. I know certain synths with MSEG envelopes that take ages to tweak. So sometimes less is more, especially ..... when you dont need more. This doesnt mean that sophisticated modulators are not heavily desired for certain sounds. But they are thousands of ways to make extremely sophisticated modulations, that, btw, contribute to the uniqueness of some synths. Ymmv.
http://www.lelotusbleu.fr Synth Presets
77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there
77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there
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- KVRAF
- 1504 posts since 20 Feb, 2003
But the complication is perhaps that things can't always be so easily divided.. like when other bits, even support circuits between sections, potentially influence the harmonic content too.. aka distortion.. but not in the obvious (guitar pedals/amps) sense usually thought of when that word is used.Lotuzia wrote:Serious confusion in this thread. Transcient relates to harmonic content and therefore sound sources/oscillators. While envelopes, as pictured in this thread, ie tied to gain, relate to volume-VCA/time handling.
The snappy / clicky attack has become a bit of a distraction with envelopes. Not that they aren't important, but it's not an issue for digital. I'd rather see some attention placed on (what sounds like) unintentional compression of the signal (not just saturation but analogue gain stages pre or post envelope) and more thought about interactions between envelopes and other parts of a model is probably a good thing in general.
I know some models have went in that direction, but they still seem to lean towards a slightly "softer" sound than certain hardware, for want of a better subjective term
That's a good point. I'm just happy to see curves at all. But adding the ability to modulate segments does take that to the next level. I hope we see more of that sort of thingI know much less synths for example that have modulatable EV segments. This is almost more important for me now than adjustable curves.