Multisampling and "hacking" romplers?

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
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I've noticed that a lot of hardware rompler multisample libraries around the internet
have the following similarities:

- multiple samples mapped twice for left and right.

- strange names (which feature complex numbers and letters) - as if they were extracted from the rompler's memory and also sample names that have nothing to do with the patches name.

- plus other complex keyboard mappings which i doubt the seller has done.

- some libraries have thousands of presets and I honestly doubt that the seller multisampled each hardware rompler preset one at a time.

My question is whether it is possible that to hack into the romplers ROM, take the presets and convert them into NKIs or get the PCM multisamples expand them and create NKIs?

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Are you serious? What does the EULA of each rompler say about that?

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Haha...I'm not debating whether this is legal or not. I'm just asking if it's possible to hack the ROM and get the samples directly from there rather than recording the thing yourself note by note :)

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cocoazenith wrote:- multiple samples mapped twice for left and right.
AKAI did things this way, so you could have separate loop points for left and right sides. Makes sense, too, since for some sampled content you cannot really loop things nicely if they are a proper stereo file.
cocoazenith wrote:- strange names (which feature complex numbers and letters) - as if they were extracted from the rompler's memory and also sample names that have nothing to do with the patches name.
Sounds like AKAI CD ROM import, yep. Very likely used en masse in Kontakt or the like.

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cocoazenith wrote:Haha...I'm not debating whether this is legal or not. I'm just asking if it's possible to hack the ROM and get the samples directly from there rather than recording the thing yourself note by note :)
Yes, extracting ROM images is possible if you have the tools. That's how emulators work for things like old computers, game consoles, arcade machines, etc. A software layer emulates the behavior of the underlying hardware, then actual ROM images from the original machines are loaded into the hardware emulation. It's all very much not legal.

For old romplers and synths though at some point you're just better off compiling your own set of legit samples rather than pull the samples from the hardware. First, you avoid violating copyrights, laws, whatever. Second, the quality of the source samples is not necessarily all that great to begin with. Some of those old rack units and synths might have 16, 32, 64 MB of waveform ROM. If all you need is one or two decent 1 second snippets of a trumpet or a piano, then geez I bet you have 1000 options on freesound.org that are higher quality than some low bitrate sample from a Proteus or a M1. And if low bitrate is actually what you want, then you can do that too with some processing. Later hardware like the Yamaha, Roland, Korg workstations have higher quality waveform ROMs than the much older hardware. Maybe 128MB, 256MB, 512MB, or more. So maybe with more contemporary hardware you'll get a better set of piano or bass guitar samples, but really nothing better than you can obtain legitimately. You can cheaply license or just make quality waveforms of pianos, guitars, drums, synth waveforms, whatever. Typically free licenses requires the end product to be free, depending on the license. Then again, maybe lawsuits and getting dressed up for court dates is your cup of tea, I don't know.

The harder part of emulating a rompler is not the raw waveforms, it's the synth engine. Some units, like the Roland U20, are very spartan, sample playback things. Other units like the D50, M1, Triton, whatever actually have synth engines. You first need to understand how your romper actually synthesizes sound, then build or license a synth engine that approximates that, and build patches to match the originals accordingly.
You need to limit that rez, bro.

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By no means I am looking to hack into a Rompler or create a pack.

I am just honestly curious to how these sellers did it, because with all the evidence, I really believe
they took the samples directly from the rompler's ROM memory.

I'm talking about synths that use only samples (PCM and the likes). D-50 for example isn't all PCM.

Looking to find more on this subject, so if anyone has some some secrets to share, now is the time.

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cocoazenith wrote:I am just honestly curious to how these sellers did it, because with all the evidence, I really believe they took the samples directly from the rompler's ROM memory.
Unlikely. The amount of reverse-engineering needed for that just wouldn't be worth it.
some libraries have thousands of presets and I honestly doubt that the seller multisampled each hardware rompler preset one at a time.
Romplers have midi, it can be automated. http://samplerobot.com/

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teempee wrote:
cocoazenith wrote:I am just honestly curious to how these sellers did it, because with all the evidence, I really believe they took the samples directly from the rompler's ROM memory.
Unlikely. The amount of reverse-engineering needed for that just wouldn't be worth it.
some libraries have thousands of presets and I honestly doubt that the seller multisampled each hardware rompler preset one at a time.
Romplers have midi, it can be automated. http://samplerobot.com/
It's true it is unlikely but maybe someone older with proper knowledge gathered
from the '90s can do it easily.

For example the DigitalSoundFactory E-MU stuff seems somehow taken from inside the E-MU romplers.
Some original patches from those 90's racks had layered PCM samples. I've seen the same thing in the DSF NKIs. The level of layering and panning of samples is pretty complex in some patches.

There are three possibilities now:

1. they sampled the preset (which let's say is the kind that features layered sounds) from the ROMpler. Why does it feature layered samples also in the NKI (shouldn't it be just several samples of just that one whole preset?).

2. let's say then went and recreated these presets manually and layered those sounds in Kontakt to get the result in the ROMpler. the only counter argument i have for this is that it's a tedious work for a lot of patches
and it would be easier to just sample how i stated at no. 1

3. hacking the ROM - not likely but if omeone at DSF (who are people from E-MU ;-)) can extract the contents from their ROMplers and expand it then other tech savy people can do it too.

hope i haven't lost myself in translation.


anyway, thanks for the link. i've been looking for something like that.

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cocoazenith wrote:
teempee wrote:
cocoazenith wrote:I am just honestly curious to how these sellers did it, because with all the evidence, I really believe they took the samples directly from the rompler's ROM memory.
Unlikely. The amount of reverse-engineering needed for that just wouldn't be worth it.
some libraries have thousands of presets and I honestly doubt that the seller multisampled each hardware rompler preset one at a time.
Romplers have midi, it can be automated. http://samplerobot.com/
It's true it is unlikely but maybe someone older with proper knowledge gathered
from the '90s can do it easily.

For example the DigitalSoundFactory E-MU stuff seems somehow taken from inside the E-MU romplers.
Some original patches from those 90's racks had layered PCM samples. I've seen the same thing in the DSF NKIs. The level of layering and panning of samples is pretty complex in some patches.

There are three possibilities now:

1. they sampled the preset (which let's say is the kind that features layered sounds) from the ROMpler. Why does it feature layered samples also in the NKI (shouldn't it be just several samples of just that one whole preset?).

2. let's say then went and recreated these presets manually and layered those sounds in Kontakt to get the result in the ROMpler. the only counter argument i have for this is that it's a tedious work for a lot of patches
and it would be easier to just sample how i stated at no. 1

3. hacking the ROM - not likely but if omeone at DSF (who are people from E-MU ;-)) can extract the contents from their ROMplers and expand it then other tech savy people can do it too.

hope i haven't lost myself in translation.


anyway, thanks for the link. i've been looking for something like that.
I believe that it is the case that DSF were the original providers of the Emu library. They did the sampling so they have the rights to distribute them.

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Bassballjg wrote:I believe that it is the case that DSF were the original providers of the Emu library. They did the sampling so they have the rights to distribute them.
Yes, the good folks at DSF created many of the E-MU and Ensoniq sounds, so they probably still own the original samples--and the rights to them. (I know in the case of the Proteus VX VST, the sounds came directly from the original Proteus, TS-10, ASR-10 and other Ensoniq libraries, and in the Proteus VST, they sound great!)

Another possibility to "hacking" the ROMpler is that someone may have used a "sample translator" (similar to Chicken Systems' software) to convert the samples from one format to the other. These may not have been taken from the ROMpler's ROM; they may have been taken from a CD or cartridge.

At any rate, I doubt anyone would be selling a collection created this way, as it's almost certainly in flagrant violation of the copyright, for reasons already stated. And it wouldn't take long for word to get out if that were the case, so I doubt something like this could go unnoticed for very long.

Steve
Here's some of my stuff: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife. If you hear something you like, I'm looking for collaborators.

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planetearth wrote:
Bassballjg wrote:I believe that it is the case that DSF were the original providers of the Emu library. They did the sampling so they have the rights to distribute them.
Yes, the good folks at DSF created many of the E-MU and Ensoniq sounds, so they probably still own the original samples--and the rights to them. (I know in the case of the Proteus VX VST, the sounds came directly from the original Proteus, TS-10, ASR-10 and other Ensoniq libraries, and in the Proteus VST, they sound great!)

Another possibility to "hacking" the ROMpler is that someone may have used a "sample translator" (similar to Chicken Systems' software) to convert the samples from one format to the other. These may not have been taken from the ROMpler's ROM; they may have been taken from a CD or cartridge.

At any rate, I doubt anyone would be selling a collection created this way, as it's almost certainly in flagrant violation of the copyright, for reasons already stated. And it wouldn't take long for word to get out if that were the case, so I doubt something like this could go unnoticed for very long.

Steve
Ah, yes. Forgot the possibility that they might actually own the original uncompressed samples. LOL.
And it's true, some others might have taken them (samples) from floppies or cartdriges.

About the flagrant violation of copyright, the most multisample packs that I'm talking about are sold on eBay. Those guys don't have a de-facto company, as they hide behind a username.

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Got to be some good systematic tricks worth sharing here¿ Problem is a poorly featured Rompler can actually obstruct / limit / diminish (etc) the sexy sounds it purports to present. Like DskChoirz for example: real lush waves but low polyphony, just 2 filter types, no variable filter envelope depth, no variable keyboard tracking; no way of removing the 2/3 layers you're not using (assuming you're really feeling the textures), etc etc, I really don't like it, doesn't even fit on my netbook screen. Those sounds need liberating into the land of the DS404 (or whatever sampler you've grown up with, hey I'm not about to impose any more limitations!). Case in point though, say you liked that DS404 patch I uploaded, "Not In This Life", but you hated the DS404, maybe you just couldn't live with its fake, sticky-back pvc (unthinkable!)... Well, you could just use Audacity to " Import Raw data" (16bit 44.1k 2 channels, default endian) and voila... Cut out the jibba-jabba controlling the knobs and stuff and there's your mysterious sci-fi soundscape. Try those conversion hijinx on DskChoirz and its 25MB of almost total ear-screeching hash.

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