Great observation.. Thought provoking, how to avoid boredom in today's song format.Tricky-Loops wrote:Another important point is that a good melody has enough repetition, so that the listener can get familiar with it, and enough variation to grab the listener's attention. To achieve this balance is the most difficult thing. Most melodies nowadays are too repetitive because it's so easy to copy the same loop in your DAW over and over...
what goes into a good melody?
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- KVRist
- 213 posts since 10 Sep, 2014
My latest crazy track "The Quick Brown Fox sampled the Lazy Dog": http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 4&t=425647
15 Free DIVA Presets: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 8#p5892108
15 Free DIVA Presets: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 8#p5892108
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- KVRist
- 439 posts since 20 Jun, 2005
Yeah. Common technique used in all genres of music.Synchanter wrote:The chorus/emotional highpoints go to higher pitches.
Verse = low pitch; Chorus = High pitch.
Even Bruce Dickinson use this technique in his vocal lines. Saw his interview on youtube, can't find link.
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
Maybe, but then, what is your example of a motif? The way I was taught, a motif is a very short cell, a gesture, which has a melodical/rhythmic character that allows to transform it but having it still recognized.Tricky-Loops wrote:Maybe that's because you're trained in CLASSICAL music. I learned about motives, phrases and themes, I didn't learn about (classical) periods...
One example everybody knows is the motif of the fifth symphony - I movement. Actually, almost all symphony material is derived for that particular four note motif. Another good example is the first piano sonata. In these compositions, you have not "themes", but an exposition, which material is derived from the motif (or motives, since you have more than one), a development, where the motives are worked and transformed in many ways, and then re-exposition, where the exposition is repeated with some changes. A classical ternary form A-B-A'
Last edited by fmr on Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)
- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Then another question is if you're writing a melody for a classical piano piece or for a song in a beer tent. If you're writing a song for a beer tent, you won't get any success with an over-complicated classical piano melody which people cannot remember and sing, even after 5 mugs of beer...
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
If I were asked a song for a beer tent, I would follow the theme repeating song, but with a short theme - like KumbaiahTricky-Loops wrote:Then another question is if you're writing a melody for a classical piano piece or for a song in a beer tent. If you're writing a song for a beer tent, you won't get any success with an over-complicated classical piano melody which people cannot remember and sing, even after 5 mugs of beer...
Fernando (FMR)
- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Kumbaiah is actually a good example for a simple melody that would be great for a beer tent song. I'm seriously planning to write some modern (Bavarian) dance songs for beer tents; so I'm struggling at the moment with either too much repetition or too much variation, I still haven't found the right melodies. Maybe I should study nursery rhymes...fmr wrote:If I were asked a song for a beer tent, I would follow the theme repeating song, but with a short theme - like KumbaiahTricky-Loops wrote:Then another question is if you're writing a melody for a classical piano piece or for a song in a beer tent. If you're writing a song for a beer tent, you won't get any success with an over-complicated classical piano melody which people cannot remember and sing, even after 5 mugs of beer...
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
I know. I was laughing, because it is somehow a religious song (or so I think, it's not really of my tradition), but I was serious about it.Tricky-Loops wrote:Kumbaiah is actually a good example for a simple melody that would be great for a beer tent song.
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRAF
- 1585 posts since 13 Nov, 2005 from St. Paul
Can music theory say if anything is good? The terms to describe melody would seem to be a lot like the terms we use in harmony (e.g., major third, perfect fourth, augmented fifth) except rather than three notes at a time, it would just be two, and rather than just talking about pure stacks you'd get into the sequencing of the notes. The overall contour of a melody could be analyzed, the length of the melody and changes in phrase lengths, the degree to which it involves sequences or passage work versus cantabile lines, or the level of repetition. The same types of analyses could be applied to harmony. Neither set of descriptive terms can really describe how good either a melody or harmony is.
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 11 May, 2008
Oh my, time to heat things up.
If you want to formalize something like melodies go find the studies of the ones who done it: bartok, janacek and nketia. And in more modern times studies of huron, lerdal and jakendoff or the good "the psychology of music" 3rd edition by Dianne Deutsch, or even Pat Pattinson, that gives a songwriting course for free in coursera, go find it out. And you'll find many, many clues.
Some links:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1519954
http://dspace.library.uvic.ca/handle/1828/1030
I'm going to point a smart direction in my opinion - a melody that is empathic, is mostly one that is derived from human voice. So a "singable" melody will tend to be a good one.
A singable melody is something that one can sing - so it will have a restrict range (usually within one octave and half), will have lots of repetition and small leaps... but they will not be random at all - they will have been derived from the prosody of the TEXT being sung.
What text? Well, if you want to compose an instrumental melody your place to start would still be a text. any text. Pick up a book, a kitchen recepy whatever... of course a poem that rhymes will be more "predictable" and "hookable", and read it. And pay attention to the rhythm of the words and the overall contour and leap. Then try to say that text on top of an harmonic progression, any one you will like.
The moment you start saying that text against those chords, you will be atracted to some pitches derived from those chords... and you'll get a nice singable melody. There you go, now you can write it down and get rid of the text!...
Mostly a good melody is one that preserves that natural rhythms and contours found in the prosody of the human voice.
Not ALL melodies are like this. There are many good melodies not resembling human voice or singable at all. BUT, if you start with singable ones you'll get a good chance at developing something that will please most people.
I seriously believe music is profoundly linked with language. Patel's "Music, language and the brain" might also be a good reading.
If you want to formalize something like melodies go find the studies of the ones who done it: bartok, janacek and nketia. And in more modern times studies of huron, lerdal and jakendoff or the good "the psychology of music" 3rd edition by Dianne Deutsch, or even Pat Pattinson, that gives a songwriting course for free in coursera, go find it out. And you'll find many, many clues.
Some links:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1519954
http://dspace.library.uvic.ca/handle/1828/1030
I'm going to point a smart direction in my opinion - a melody that is empathic, is mostly one that is derived from human voice. So a "singable" melody will tend to be a good one.
A singable melody is something that one can sing - so it will have a restrict range (usually within one octave and half), will have lots of repetition and small leaps... but they will not be random at all - they will have been derived from the prosody of the TEXT being sung.
What text? Well, if you want to compose an instrumental melody your place to start would still be a text. any text. Pick up a book, a kitchen recepy whatever... of course a poem that rhymes will be more "predictable" and "hookable", and read it. And pay attention to the rhythm of the words and the overall contour and leap. Then try to say that text on top of an harmonic progression, any one you will like.
The moment you start saying that text against those chords, you will be atracted to some pitches derived from those chords... and you'll get a nice singable melody. There you go, now you can write it down and get rid of the text!...
Mostly a good melody is one that preserves that natural rhythms and contours found in the prosody of the human voice.
Not ALL melodies are like this. There are many good melodies not resembling human voice or singable at all. BUT, if you start with singable ones you'll get a good chance at developing something that will please most people.
I seriously believe music is profoundly linked with language. Patel's "Music, language and the brain" might also be a good reading.
Last edited by Musicologo on Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Play fair and square!
- KVRAF
- 3303 posts since 6 Jul, 2012 from Sick-cily
In Italy we use to say the "SENTIMENTO"..!
- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Sentimiento, por favor!*Turello wrote:In Italy we use to say the "SENTIMENTO"..!
* sorry, that's the Spanish version...
- KVRAF
- 25051 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I think this is very good advice.Musicologo wrote: a text. any text.
pay attention to the rhythm of the words and the overall contour and leap. Then try to say that text on top of an harmonic progression, any one you will like.
The moment you start saying that text against those chords, you will be atracted to some pitches derived from those chords...
preserve natural rhythms and contours found in the prosody of the human voice.
I would stop short of saying any modus operandi will 'tend to be good' through itself though. As per Jopy's remarks, one could do everything splendidly in terms of a description of procedures but produce utter crap. I think there's something a bit ineffable about melody. It's something I guess I don't want to verbalize.
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
Well, in portuguese, we marry the two: "Sentimento, por favor" (well, not really. That is portuguese, but we would rather say: "deixa o coração falar" (let your heart speak).Tricky-Loops wrote:Sentimiento, por favor!*Turello wrote:In Italy we use to say the "SENTIMENTO"..!
* sorry, that's the Spanish version...
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRist
- 55 posts since 5 May, 2012
listen to the radio and analyse the riddles that catch your attention and stay in the brain. That's the stuff you are looking for.
A riddle needs to tilt the song/track to a higher level, so it's not only notes that matter, but sound, timing and context are essential. And depending on the instrument the riddle is being played upon, player skills can make a world of difference.
And as being said higher in the topic: variation (to prevent it to be boring) is important.
(unless you are in to dance music, where endless repetitions seems to be something that is far more accepted then in other styles)
A riddle needs to tilt the song/track to a higher level, so it's not only notes that matter, but sound, timing and context are essential. And depending on the instrument the riddle is being played upon, player skills can make a world of difference.
And as being said higher in the topic: variation (to prevent it to be boring) is important.
(unless you are in to dance music, where endless repetitions seems to be something that is far more accepted then in other styles)
- KVRAF
- 3303 posts since 6 Jul, 2012 from Sick-cily
fmr explain my minds perfectly!
@Tricky:
@Tricky: