KVR Audio

synzh · Post by **synzh** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:57 pm

somewhat related to the topic - cool topic BTW - I'm not personally interested in foley sounds, but wanted to mention that one sound I can't stand in TV/movies is the footstep sound. No matter how quietly it usually sticks out to me and really grates on my nerves. Again probably only me

arklight · Post by **arklight** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:16 am

@synzh

The sound of people punching in movies has always been ridiculous to me.
The real sound world is less of the almost snare like slap that you get in films,
but a boring thud that has no drama behind it.

Which is why I said it's probably best to listen to cinematic reference
when creating virtual Foley Vsts and not just real world references.

reminds me of a (probably urban legend) cgi story the 3D computer imagery for movies guys tell.
Where an vfx company was asked to do a 3D scene in space, with a space shuttle and everything.
So of course they did that and used real life references. When the client saw it he complained he could
hardly see anything! It was all murky and dark.They explained that's what space was mostly like,
they were being accurate! Right down to the physical modelling of the light.

They then had to go back and do "Hollywood Space" with the ...er..studio lighting in space
so you could see everything and please the client.

Exact same thing for some instances of foley sound.Some of the sounds in cinema
are not that realistic and they're that way for a reason.

Heri Mkocha

synzh · Post by **synzh** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:27 am

Right understood the sounds do have to be "drama-ed" up for the movies; I'm with you on the punching sounds, it's kind of funny sometimes. It's just that I'm somehow sensitive to those clicky or thumpy sounds of footsteps in the absence of any other sound, on film; in real life I don't mind muffled footsteps but still don't like the click-click of heels or hard shoes.

carlbe · Post by **carlbe** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:40 pm

Has anyone got full excerpts of the Andy Farnell book apart from the preview of the index for that book, because I can't seem to find it

Not sure I know what you mean. I own the book. Are you asking for "free" electronic copies of it, like PDF?
Andy's example patches are mostly done in Pure Data. PD can load vst's.
So you have a free (PD) environment to create many foley like sfx plus add free vst sources for noise, oscillators, delay, reverb, etc. The tools to write your own are there and Andy's book has 100's of examples.
The book is $50 in the US on amazon and well worth that considering I have not found as comprehensive a source on this area.

cheers

Winstontaneous · Post by **Winstontaneous** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:44 pm

arklight wrote:Has anyone got full excerpts of the Andy Farnell book apart from the preview of the index for that book,
because I can't seem to find it, I think that it might be diving right into the deep end for some people.

There are more previews with examples from Andy Farnell's "Designing Sound" at the original publisher's site. Some of the most useful chapters (not included in the links) are the ones on acoustics, physics, and perception. I've seen most of that information in other sources, but never distilled so eloquently in one place. In the absence of a do-it-all plugin, the book gives enough guidance for motivated folks to make their own convincing sounds from scratch.

arklight · Post by **arklight** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:36 pm

@Winstontaneous

Thank you. I had a look.I think this would be fantastic for vst developers,
I'm just worried that two looks at that, and the "casual" KVR thread reader might be put off

Is the idea of re purposing snare/clap synths and kick drum synths (for low impact bumps and thuds)
difficult for the developers out there who who already made them. Wouldn't they be going back
to their plugins instead of starting from scratch?

Isn't this a GUI problem (correct me if I'm wrong) . For example a Kick Drum Synth
and a thud impact synth would have exactly the same things under the hood except
the envelope would be fixed for the type of impact the synth creates. So for a normal
everyday "thud" the attack section of the envelope would be short, so would be
the sustain part of the envelope, with a very quick release).

in fact here is someone who has done exactly that A VST Suite that emulates Foley sounds of
THUDS KLANGS,BUMPS. The Ironhead Suite...

http://www.kvraudio.com/product/ironhead-by-ugo

Because the suites plugins are pitch dependent you will have to go up/down the keyboard pitch
to get the sound exactly right.

Worth noting the above iron head suite that can do Foley sounds
is in the "Drum Synth" category of KVR...

....

Heri Mkocha

carlbe · Post by **carlbe** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:07 am

I might be a bit pessimistic but, while I agree that *some* sounds are easy to create via synthesis (like noise based or comb filter based) others are not. And when I say easy I suppose I should not want to say impossible, but rather impractical. If I look across all my synths, with the exception of Rurik's stuff, when I get to the SFX section of any of them I don't come across things like door knocks and food goo splat sounds for example. Instead I find 'atmo' or sci-fi type impacts or cheesy sci-fi stingers.

My experience, admittedly limited to around 10 years, has been that certain sounds are just faster to create with traditional foley than through a oscillator based, or "physically modeled" synthesis. I'm not speaking here of single hit "hard sfx" but rather gesture based, performed foley. So if for instance I need a complex sound of someone chopping a carrot on a cutting board in rhythm to a video sequence, then I'm going to be a lot faster doing the actual act with a close mic and a room mic, than I can ever imagine trying to recreate that in a synth.

Secondly, I'm not sure a majority of vst plug developers are accustomed to thinking about this area vs. music. Again atmo sure, but not real foley work. I was shocked, very pleasantly, by Rurik's series of synths, but even those have limited use when it comes time to hustle through a production... under those stressful circumstances I find physical foley, or even mouthing the sound so much faster. I'll admit that I sometimes have to run around shopping for a physical item to get what I need ( a bird cage being carried and dropped was the last thing I remember having to go get the item for) but still I have to think it's still faster. No?

What's your experience?

cheers

arklight · Post by **arklight** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:50 am

@carlbe

If we don't try we don't get I suppose. We have to start somewhere.

I'd usually record sounds in the normal manner, this was the easier bit most of the time.
It was the Mixing bit that got me to look elsewhere for an alternative, because as discussed
in the previous posts in this thread, cinematic sound really doesn't resemble the real sounds
of the objects or action at all. The recording of the impact, needed to be spiced up,
then made to sit with other sounds.

Then one day I just used a simple sine synth like sinesynth...

http://www.kvraudio.com/product/sinesynth_by_ndc_plugs

to create the low end bump with a bit of distortion after it, to and there it was. Dialed in.
The workflow was so much easier, instead of re-recording, editing, comping, repeatedly.

Then " Xoxos " aka Rurik Leffanta began exploring, and has been a bit of a pioneer.

I really think it's a way of re-thinking other sounds, rather than reinventing the wheel,
I know we can't expect everything to be emulated over night, though
I've heard some speech synth programs do things I thought many years ago were unachievable.
But hey, a start is a start.

Heri Mkocha

carlbe · Post by **carlbe** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:07 am

I will agree 100% that for individual hits and some simple symmetrical rhythms (like virtual machine) that synths and even some sample mangle vst's are very useful. Sweeteners too. I love both Slayer and Whoosh in Reaktor for layering and modulation.

Rurik and I had an email exchange many years ago, around his release of Nature if I remember correctly, and I was just blown away with it. I humbly suggested that he contact folks like FMOD guys or Wwise because I knew at the time they were looking to integrate physical modeling type tools... Finally the new FMOD Studio version (the paid version) has a weather gen module, but this is expensive.
What I was previously alluding to was maybe poorly written. The sounds I can see being replaced with synthetic, especially in interactive media's parameter driven, procedural engines, but it's the performance aspect of foley that I find more challenging. Personally I think it will take more than an XY controller or two to quickly replicate the actions of a good foley artist.

But anyway - perhaps as 'for pay' audio platforms incorporate this type of sound design tool the vst world will follow. The place to watch I think is procedural sound design in audio engines in gaming, and not the DAW world of which sound designers must make up a tiny customer base. This is also true with interactive procedural composition.
That is the focus of Mr. Farnell's book (he used to write white papers released on the web before the book came out) and I think why you'll find sound designers in that area using Pure Data/MAXMSP, custom Reaktor builds, or just raw code - because they are comfortable with coding... and being "restricted" to waiting for VST work to get going is possibly missing what is already going on, at least in the gaming realms.

Cheers

Pytchblend · Post by **Pytchblend** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:32 pm

As an aside, I found this interesting sample launcher that looks ideal for live stage work - CK_Launcher: Universal Sample Trigger Player VST for Windows (32bit).
"Loads up to 72 standard wav files.
Create your own Keyboard Sample Mapping layouts which can be used by ANY hardware trigger unit through the 're-mapping' feature.
Learn new hardware trigger devices.
Supports sample Playback rate/pitch, Groups*, Pan/Bal, Level, Fnc(one-shot/gated play).
*Groups: A new sample will stop any other sample with the same Group ID from playing - good for hihats and mashing up Loops."

More at http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5936103

arklight · Post by **arklight** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:01 pm

@pytchblend :

Nice find, I have never seen that before, I'm sure alot of people will get use out of that
never mind the rudimentary GUI.Thanks.

@carble :

On the performance aspect of Virtual Foley, check this video out, the guy is
using a Virtual foley footstep (payware) VST on an iPad, and he's tapping the iPad,
and it works!....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmDpWvi1hMc

Here creating virtual footsteps with same vst and a Midi Keyboard.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHPaPZn4SyA

Bonus video, different virtual instrument inside logic,
but the performance principles are the same with the midi keyboard.
Also shows him watching the video and performing the Virtual Foley....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_hD6wrJyfY

Some of the footstep sounds that he creates I suppose could be created with synth
white noise bursts,with a glitch plugin (or buffer effect plugin) after like the free Fracture VST
or the free Hysteresis VST breaking up the white noise.

It's telling that apart from the pioneering Xoxos that alot of the Virtual Foley stuff is coming
from the Gaming World, which is an industry that basically recreates everything virtually ,
environments, people, objects,lighting etc, so they're in that mindset already.
Virtual Foley is just an obvious next step.

Heri Mkocha

carlbe · Post by **carlbe** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 pm

Hi Heri - yes I've done similar things in kontakt for f-steps, gun shots, and the like when you have a limited scope of sounds that can map to a scene and what's required is mostly fast placement versus subtlety. It is a lot faster than setting up a foley session especially if you've got a good sfx selection ahead of time.
I went back, since this conversation is definitely in my interest area, and checked if MAX/MSP can export to VST but unfortunately they dropped that functionality from it a few versions back. I thought it would be a nifty side project to take Mr. Farnell's book examples and build them in MAX and then see if a set of vst containers could be created. oh well.

Perhaps someone more versed in Reaktor than myself would look at this area since Reaktor *should* have all the ingredients for this type of sfx work...

On the complete opposite end - look at the lengths gone for the Interstellar movie!
http://vimeo.com/112098660

Cheers and thanks for the examples -
Carl

Noise Makers · Post by **Noise Makers** » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:37 am

Hi there,

You can try Procedural Ambient Noise Orchestra available at http://www.noisemakers.fr.
It is a virtual instrument for Foley and interactive sound Fx.
https://vimeo.com/103082117

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:51 am

carlbe wrote:I thought it would be a nifty side project to take Mr. Farnell's book examples and build them in MAX

Ive thought that as well, but it seems like a hefty project and I dont have the attention span required

. The flipside is that libpd and Tannhauser reinforce the fact that pd itself is becoming more and more embeddable, and thus more likely to turn up in game engines and plugins. If only it werent so damn fugly.

arklight · Post by **arklight** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:26 pm

Ok, alot of the free Foley vst plugins are on the first page of this thread
(lob some more in if you find/create some!)

And the videos in the posts before have looked at how to perform with the foley vst with a midi keyboards
,iPads and such.

So let's look into the whole reason why you are using Foley VSTs, you're not creating random sounds for fun,
they are part of a soundscape, a sound scape that needs to be mixed, which is
why with synths you have a greater control in sculpting those frequencies.

But the question is why do we mix the way we do, when creating soundscapes
why have we come to these rules about avoiding frequency masking.

It seems nature has taught us by instinct, and culture has intuitively worked it out when we created
hand crafted instruments like drums, violins and the other instruments.
It wasn't an accident.Soundscape ecologist (!) Bernie Krause explains...

This next video is a "MIND BLOWN" type of video watch from 22:00 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kXunfO ... 7&index=14

Too long didn't read version:

Bernie Krause explains that certain animals have evolved to dominate certain blocks of frequencies
in the ecosystem when communicating by sound. They did this so there wouldn't be any frequency
masking when communicating through the jungle (pictures below from video):

When we got civilized enough to create our own instruments we took inspiration from
the sound scapes of our old habitats and created instruments (by hand) that were built
intuitively to re-create the separation and quality of sounds we heard in the jungles,
forests, savannahs and more which we inhabited a long time before.

The video goes into much much more, I highly recommend you watch the whole of it if you can
, it's an hour and 22 minutes long. Not many people have seen it ,(so pass it on!), but the video
starts to give you a philisophical underpinning/rough guide for mixing decisions in soundscapes
without getting technical and getting protools out.

Something to dine on at your leisure, seasons greetings!!

Heri Mkocha

Foley and Cinematic Sound FX PLugins!