Hi Everyone,
I recently got a good deal on a Hammond M3, and will be having a 1/4" output installed so that I can run it into external pedals and amps (the output will be variable, running from instrument level to line level). If I start with a low, instrument level, can I run this into one of my guitar amps without problem? I have several options for this, both tube and SS:
Peavey Classic 30
Mesa Boogie Studio .22+
Polytone Minibrute
Ibanez Wholetone WT-80
How will it sound? Should I run it into the effects return, bypassing the guitar amp preamp, if I want the cleanest volume? I know that guitar speakers and amps are generally designed for the frequency range of guitars (obviously), but I don't think the M3's bottom is that low (not as low as a B3, for example, but not sure). Will I do any damage to the guitar amp or speakers?
Thanks!
Hammond M3 Through Guitar Amp?
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- KVRAF
- 3080 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN
I don't think the hammond could damage the guitar amp any more than a guitar could damage the same amp.
It has been awhile since I was inside an M or L hammond, but the best I recall (this may be wrong)-- The signal processing is very simple and sparse, contained in small tube chassis mounted in the upper part of the hammond case.
The power amp (and power supply for all the electronics) is in a chassis bolted to the bottom of the case. The back is a thin fiberboard easily removed with a few wood screws (or maybe tapped inserts, can't recall).
If I recall correctly, an rca cable as seen on common home stereos routes the line-level signal from the top preamp to the bottom power amp. You could insert an rca to phone plug cable into the top preamp box's output and plug it into an external mixer or amp. I have done that numerous occasions and do not recall ever burning up an amp or mixer.
However, I recall at one time making little passive line level adapter boxes with 600 ohm isolation transformers, to minimize hum and make this possibly a little safer to do. Or alternately, the same transformer isolation concept except with a resistive pad so the signal could be tapped off the speakers rather than the line level signal.
For the low-level signal, those inexpensive small isolation transformer "hum buster" type boxes would be a pre-made gadget which would do the same thing.
New tube amps are pretty bullet-proof, but older tube gear not necessarily as bullet-proof. It would be good to make sure both the hammond and the amp are plugged into wall outlet on the same house breaker, or both plugged into the same distribution box plugged into a single wall outlet. Sometimes tube gear interconnected, plugged into different breakers on different legs of the power coming from the pole, can cause large currents to run thru the ground connector in the signal cable, causing smoke and bad vibes.
Which a proper isolation transformer can help to prevent.
But I always have run everything off a single AC circuit, and recall routing the line level from L's and M's to amps without an isolation transformer, many times without tragedy ensuing. But it would be safer and perhaps have less hum to use an isolation transformer.
I usually ran the line level signal to various leslies equipped with quarter-inch preamp inputs. It would sound more "static" running into a geetar amp, but would be real good for heavy-distorted hammond. It should also be adequately clean, if the gain is set for clean sound, on a geetar amp capable of sounding real clean. For instance, I expect it would sound pretty sweet driving an old Fender Super Reverb amp, though the amps you listed can probably be set to be pretty clean.
A few years ago I had my living-room M connected to a motion sound rotary tweeter just via the rca connection, no isolation transformer, and then the "fake electronic low rotor" signal routed from the motion sound back to the amp inside the organ to handle the bass with the organ's speaker. It worked fine as best I recall, except motion sound is pretty terrible sounding compared to a real leslie. The horn on motion sound is too bright, and I usually put a small parametric EQ inline to try to fix that issue, but it still sounds too brittle compared to a leslie.
Hammonds do not have very high-frequency output really, and leslie horns roll off around 2 KHz. That combination sounds mellow. The motion sound is too "hifi" and carries too many high freqs and sounds ratty with the unavoidable small amounts of tube disortion caused by the hammond electronics.
I don't currently have the motion sound hooked up to the living room hammond, because wife didn't think the sound was an improvement when she plays it, and she didn't like the look of the black-painted motion sound box in the living room.
It has been awhile since I was inside an M or L hammond, but the best I recall (this may be wrong)-- The signal processing is very simple and sparse, contained in small tube chassis mounted in the upper part of the hammond case.
The power amp (and power supply for all the electronics) is in a chassis bolted to the bottom of the case. The back is a thin fiberboard easily removed with a few wood screws (or maybe tapped inserts, can't recall).
If I recall correctly, an rca cable as seen on common home stereos routes the line-level signal from the top preamp to the bottom power amp. You could insert an rca to phone plug cable into the top preamp box's output and plug it into an external mixer or amp. I have done that numerous occasions and do not recall ever burning up an amp or mixer.
However, I recall at one time making little passive line level adapter boxes with 600 ohm isolation transformers, to minimize hum and make this possibly a little safer to do. Or alternately, the same transformer isolation concept except with a resistive pad so the signal could be tapped off the speakers rather than the line level signal.
For the low-level signal, those inexpensive small isolation transformer "hum buster" type boxes would be a pre-made gadget which would do the same thing.
New tube amps are pretty bullet-proof, but older tube gear not necessarily as bullet-proof. It would be good to make sure both the hammond and the amp are plugged into wall outlet on the same house breaker, or both plugged into the same distribution box plugged into a single wall outlet. Sometimes tube gear interconnected, plugged into different breakers on different legs of the power coming from the pole, can cause large currents to run thru the ground connector in the signal cable, causing smoke and bad vibes.
Which a proper isolation transformer can help to prevent.
But I always have run everything off a single AC circuit, and recall routing the line level from L's and M's to amps without an isolation transformer, many times without tragedy ensuing. But it would be safer and perhaps have less hum to use an isolation transformer.
I usually ran the line level signal to various leslies equipped with quarter-inch preamp inputs. It would sound more "static" running into a geetar amp, but would be real good for heavy-distorted hammond. It should also be adequately clean, if the gain is set for clean sound, on a geetar amp capable of sounding real clean. For instance, I expect it would sound pretty sweet driving an old Fender Super Reverb amp, though the amps you listed can probably be set to be pretty clean.
A few years ago I had my living-room M connected to a motion sound rotary tweeter just via the rca connection, no isolation transformer, and then the "fake electronic low rotor" signal routed from the motion sound back to the amp inside the organ to handle the bass with the organ's speaker. It worked fine as best I recall, except motion sound is pretty terrible sounding compared to a real leslie. The horn on motion sound is too bright, and I usually put a small parametric EQ inline to try to fix that issue, but it still sounds too brittle compared to a leslie.
Hammonds do not have very high-frequency output really, and leslie horns roll off around 2 KHz. That combination sounds mellow. The motion sound is too "hifi" and carries too many high freqs and sounds ratty with the unavoidable small amounts of tube disortion caused by the hammond electronics.
I don't currently have the motion sound hooked up to the living room hammond, because wife didn't think the sound was an improvement when she plays it, and she didn't like the look of the black-painted motion sound box in the living room.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 3 Mar, 2010
This is excellent - thank you!
I am actually going to have a mod done whereby I can disable the internal speaker (with a dummy load) and use the 1/4 " output to power an amp, direct to mixer, etc. Hopefully this will give me many options, especially when I pick up a rotary speaker emulator (have got my eye on the Boss RT-20, which seems to get good reviews, and has a headphone output to boot).
I am actually going to have a mod done whereby I can disable the internal speaker (with a dummy load) and use the 1/4 " output to power an amp, direct to mixer, etc. Hopefully this will give me many options, especially when I pick up a rotary speaker emulator (have got my eye on the Boss RT-20, which seems to get good reviews, and has a headphone output to boot).
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- KVRian
- 1166 posts since 11 Jan, 2006 from Pittsburgh
This sounds like a good plan. I used to run my C3 through a small Fender guitar amp (and through the Leslie), and I never had any problems. Later my guitarist hooked up a cabinet to the Fender that had a full-range set of speakers, and it gave me a nice sound; the contrast when you have both a rotary speaker and a stationary one running at the same time can be a really interesting alternative to just using either one by itself.bharris22 wrote:This is excellent - thank you!
I am actually going to have a mod done whereby I can disable the internal speaker (with a dummy load) and use the 1/4 " output to power an amp, direct to mixer, etc. Hopefully this will give me many options, especially when I pick up a rotary speaker emulator (have got my eye on the Boss RT-20, which seems to get good reviews, and has a headphone output to boot).
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 3 Mar, 2010
Thank you, DocAtlas!
One other question for both of you, please. Would I be better off with full range speakers, or would the difference in frequency response not really be noticeable? If full range is recommended, I might just go for a keyboard amp or powered monitor rather than risk any damage to my guitar amp speaker.
Thanks again!!
One other question for both of you, please. Would I be better off with full range speakers, or would the difference in frequency response not really be noticeable? If full range is recommended, I might just go for a keyboard amp or powered monitor rather than risk any damage to my guitar amp speaker.
Thanks again!!
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- KVRAF
- 3080 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN
Is the intended use live gigs, or recording, or what? Good guitar amps are pretty dang tough. Unless the amp sounds like it is suffering, with the master turned up and the speaker suffering from power overload, the organ won't hurt the amp any worse than a guitar operated under identical conditions.
If you need to go louder than the amp can go, get a bigger amp or mic the amp into the pa.
Full range speakers or keyboard amps would work too.
For classic hammond tones, the organ doesn't output real high freqs like a piano or clav or bright synth patch. If reproduced cleanly, it isnt necessarily a disadvantage for the speaker to have better high freq response than the organ itself demands, though sometimes it can make the mellow hammond kinda plasticky sounding unless you take care with tone knobs.
If you add distortion it could get real unnatural sounding with too many highs. Overdriving a leslie, the distortion isn't real loud over 2 or 3 kHz, because a leslie horn starts rolling off rather low. Nothing wrong with inauthentic sounds, except if you wanted it authentic and it didn't turn out thataway.
B's and C's traditionally connected to a leslie 122 type, with a low impedance drive and big multipin cable. The leslie 147 was very similar, but more friendly to different impedance inputs. B and C could be connected to 147 as well, with a different kit.
The smaller L and M had kits available as well for either kind, as best I recall.
In the early 1970's I got an L to tote to gigs because it was smaller than a B. Experimented with it a good bit over the years, eventually chopped it to make it as small possible.
First interface was a little L pad attenuation box with isolation transformer, coming from the speaker terminals, into a leslie 147 via the old floor preamp made for 147. I didn't like that because the combined distortion of the L perc/vibrato tube low level circuits, plus the distortion of the L Amp, plus the distortion in the 147 floor preamp and power amp, was too much for my taste for a clean sound.
That is why I started bypassing the L's amp and driving from the L's low level preamp.
Later I did other changes to the leslie to make me happier with what I wanted at the time, but that's another story.
If you need to go louder than the amp can go, get a bigger amp or mic the amp into the pa.
Full range speakers or keyboard amps would work too.
For classic hammond tones, the organ doesn't output real high freqs like a piano or clav or bright synth patch. If reproduced cleanly, it isnt necessarily a disadvantage for the speaker to have better high freq response than the organ itself demands, though sometimes it can make the mellow hammond kinda plasticky sounding unless you take care with tone knobs.
If you add distortion it could get real unnatural sounding with too many highs. Overdriving a leslie, the distortion isn't real loud over 2 or 3 kHz, because a leslie horn starts rolling off rather low. Nothing wrong with inauthentic sounds, except if you wanted it authentic and it didn't turn out thataway.
B's and C's traditionally connected to a leslie 122 type, with a low impedance drive and big multipin cable. The leslie 147 was very similar, but more friendly to different impedance inputs. B and C could be connected to 147 as well, with a different kit.
The smaller L and M had kits available as well for either kind, as best I recall.
In the early 1970's I got an L to tote to gigs because it was smaller than a B. Experimented with it a good bit over the years, eventually chopped it to make it as small possible.
First interface was a little L pad attenuation box with isolation transformer, coming from the speaker terminals, into a leslie 147 via the old floor preamp made for 147. I didn't like that because the combined distortion of the L perc/vibrato tube low level circuits, plus the distortion of the L Amp, plus the distortion in the 147 floor preamp and power amp, was too much for my taste for a clean sound.
That is why I started bypassing the L's amp and driving from the L's low level preamp.
Later I did other changes to the leslie to make me happier with what I wanted at the time, but that's another story.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 3 Mar, 2010
This is very useful - thanks so much. My intended use is just to play at home with some backing tracks (using a leslie sim pedal, most likely), and maybe a little recording - definitely nothing more than (and probably nowhere near approaching) what the amp can handle.
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- KVRAF
- 6426 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
If to suggest something on leslie sim - check out Strymon Lex and also NEO Instruments Ventilator.
But if in computer look at Xils Lab LX122 plugin which I feel sound very organic and has all the relevant parameters.
But if in computer look at Xils Lab LX122 plugin which I feel sound very organic and has all the relevant parameters.
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- KVRAF
- 3080 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN
A note for clarity-- My old chopped L used a homebrew multichannel volume pedal and therefore tapped direct off the top preamp.
But a stock L or M goes from the top preamp, thru the vol pedal, into the bottom power amp. So the obvious place to tap ahead of the amp, would simply be to remove the wire from the volume pedal which plugs into the amp, and extend it.
Dunno what are the good current leslie emulators. One possibility that might be worth experiment, see if you like it, would be very simple, for recording or recreational play-- Plug the output of the hammond vol pedal into the leslie emulator, then plug the output of the leslie emulator back into the hammond amp and speakers.
The speaker config in those old living room hammonds was crude and low tech, but sounded real mellow. Was playing mine a couple days ago, sounded real warm. Not loud and rock'n'roll, but sounds purt good.
But a stock L or M goes from the top preamp, thru the vol pedal, into the bottom power amp. So the obvious place to tap ahead of the amp, would simply be to remove the wire from the volume pedal which plugs into the amp, and extend it.
Dunno what are the good current leslie emulators. One possibility that might be worth experiment, see if you like it, would be very simple, for recording or recreational play-- Plug the output of the hammond vol pedal into the leslie emulator, then plug the output of the leslie emulator back into the hammond amp and speakers.
The speaker config in those old living room hammonds was crude and low tech, but sounded real mellow. Was playing mine a couple days ago, sounded real warm. Not loud and rock'n'roll, but sounds purt good.
