KVR MIX CHALLENGE - MC08 February 2015 - Winners announced

[bjporter]

Compy,

I would love the chance to mix another acoustic artist for the next month, if possible . It's a nice change from mostly electronic stuff.

[Compyfox]

We'll see what we can do. Usually it's the other way around (too much rock).

[Uncle E]

I would love the chance to mix another acoustic artist for the next month, if possible . It's a nice change from mostly electronic stuff.

Please bring us an acoustic artist and we'll use it for the competition! Actually, there is an acoustic ska song that got submitted to us but we haven't gotten the stems yet.

[PALU]

Ok. Here we go

PART 1

I will try to comment on your mixes from the artist perspective, but as I’m a fellow mix guy I will go in some mixing details too. But - as I’m not a professional mixing engineer - I will try to write mostly about how I feel about your mix, not what technically should be done in some other way. After all I came to you with that track, because I was not able to mix it properly in the first place .

I listened to all of the mixes carefully on my mixing headphones (beyerdynamic DT770 250ohm) and parts of them on my monitors (KRK Rokit 6) - I know the sound of both of them and I know what to expect. Below you will find my thoughts on the first 10 (alphabetically). The rest will be in the next post. And in third post I will give you my top 6 mixes.

I was writing it as I listened to the mixes - so it’s a little bit chaotic. Sorry for that. Also I write everything how it sounds for me, and what I think - even if I don’t specifically write “for me” or “I feel” . And if something sounds harsh - sorry for that. Remember - English is not my first language and I respect every mix in this competition. I was writing as much as I can - the form could suffer because of that.

If something is not clear - please ask, I will try to explain what I meant better .

Thanks again for all the mixes!

IN GENERAL

I listened to 11 mixes so far and I can say that there few common problems. The main problem is the energy and punch in the metal parts. I think that it’s mostly because of problems in the bottom end - in many mixes the low end is too muffled and not focused enough.

The metal/distorted guitars sound is not on par with my reference tracks - they are often too harsh and fake sounding. Maybe it’s a sign that I should use a real amp, with a real cabinet in a real room moving real air. Or maybe the source guitar recording sucks…

And the last thing I see in the mixes is that they are often too proper and on the fence. I would really like to hear more decisiveness and rules bending. It could give the mixes more dramaturgy and emotions.

ADITYA.INHIM

In a few words: Really solid mix, but lacks dramaturgy.

Details:

• The file name is not correct according to the challenge rules. I know it’s a bit anal , but a rule is a rule.
• High noise level. Is it a creative choice? It could be, but then there is too much high freqs for me in the noise.
• Guitar harmonics/solo guitar a little bit too loud for me in the intro. Like it is not playing “with”, but trying to overpower the rest of the mix. It has enough high freqs to be a little quieter and still stand out in the mix I think.
• The first metal part is lifeless for me. Don’t know why really, but the second one feels better.
• The cymbals (not crash, but the ride one) and hats are a little bit lost in the mix in the metal parts.
• Guitars in the metal parts sounds really good. And you made that the “main course” - the mellotron is only in the background. Maybe they are a little bit more overdriven (rock sound) than distorted (metal sound), but I like it!
• The guitars are really nicely leveled (love the outro guitar-wise).
• Some ugly harshness in some places - for example in the end of the second metal part around 4:11.
• It feels really solid, but lacks some dramaturgy. Maybe more volume automation…? It lacks - for me - some more moments that make the adrenaline rush, that are surprising for the listener…
• The bottom end is good, maybe a little more punch from the kick would be nice, but comparing to my reference tracks it sounds almost there.

BJPORTER

In a few words: Nice ambient guitar tones, but not the metal ones. Sadly no delay on the guitar harmonics that should really be there.

Details:

• Love how the the guitar harmonics are fading into the verb in the intro.
• No delay/echo on the guitar harmonics. As I wrote in the text file attached to the source tracks - the delay/echo on the Guitar C track is very important as it’s a creative thing, not a mixing choice.
• The bass guitar is not working well in the intro - it sounds disconnected from the rest. Maybe it’s too dry? Maybe it has too much highs?
• Clipping? For example around 1:29, 5:53…
• L and R guitars in the intro a little too wide on the headphones.
• In the metal parts the guitars are too much in the back. They should have the center spot here. The bass guitar is still disconnected from the rest of the guitars (too much highs? it should work as a foundation for the guitars, now it sounds like a separate instrument) and it sounds like the bass is not even in volume. Maybe it would help if it was distorted a little like I proposed in the source track naming? Maybe the guitars are too wide too? Too much haas, you know?
• (by “too wide” I mean that there is some hollowness in the center. It feels like there is something missing in this very wide stereo panorama)
• In the metal parts I mostly hear the snare and the dry bass guitar, which is not good. There is no feeling of completeness.
• Crazy toms (or snare??) around 3:50, 4:07 and so on - too loud and too sticking out. For example around 5:22 this technique sounds better - it’s still too loud, but it’s more in the dramaturgy of the track. But nonetheless it’s a good idea to give the track more dramaturgy.
• As for drums - the kick is nice, the snare is nice too, but the snare is too loud for me.
• Really nice guitars sound in the ambient parts.
• The bottom end - there something not right in the volume levels in the bottom end between the kick and the bass. I hear more snare in the lows than the kick. I think that it takes some power from the the mix.
• Generally the mix feels a little bit over compressed (remember it should be a mix before the mastering phase).

COMPYFOX

In a few words: A proper mix, but lacks emotions and dramaturgy.

Details:

• The string noises in the intro/ambient parts much too loud.
• The ambient parts - too dry for me. I would love more reverb here, delays, modulation, space.
• The guitar harmonics and solo guitar starting around 1:12 are too harsh for me. Too much highs. And they are not sitting right in the mix for me - they feel too much in the foreground.
• Too little bottom end for me or maybe the bottom end is not focused enough. Especially in the metal parts. That should really move listener’s insides with power. And the metal parts lacks that power and for me. (When I listen to the bottom end of my reference tracks that power really can be heard/felt)
• For example around 2:57 before the second metal part there is a kick (or kick+tom) fill that sounds superb. This is the kind of energy that I love. But there is not much of it in the rest of the mix.
• The snare sounds nice. The kick is a little bit too muffled…
• The ambient parts are too “proper” - they were not meant as a rock/metal parts. For me they should be drown in echos and reverbs. I really miss it here.
• I love how the solo guitar is fading into the reverb around 5:50, but for me similar things should be done more often and much more distinctly.
• It lacks dramaturgy for me - I really want this song to kick you in the face when it should and cuddle you like mother cuddles a child in other moments. There should be more emotional changes.

EMPYREAN

In a few words: Nice ambience and emotions for the ambient parts. The metal part lacks aggression and power. And few things feel weird.

Details:

• Really nice ambient beginning. But don’t like the panning - the L/R guitars are moving all over the place and it makes me lost in a bad way.
• The guitar harmonics and solo guitar starting around 1:12 are a little too harsh for me. And too loud.
• I like how the bass guitar is reverberated in the intro.
• At the end of the intro the L/R guitars are too wide for me. I’m feeling like there empty spots in the stereo panorama.
• The L/R shred guitars are too quiet and the metal part lacks energy. The distorted guitars lack power, they are too harsh (they sound more like overdriven guitars, not distorted).
• I don’t know if there is something wrong with the ambience and the stereo panorama in the metal parts. When they end it feels like getting out of a well or a tunnel. Again - it’s not a good feeling. (Maybe it’s something with phase?) (EDIT: after listening on the monitors I’ve got a feeling that there is little information in the middle freq-wise - it sounds very hollow. Maybe that’s giving that “tunnel” feeling.)
• In the second metal part (maybe in the first too) there is something going on in the background - some kind of a reverb wash, shimmer or something. It sounds out of tune and is again making me feel weird, like there is some other tune playing in the same time (I literally checked few times if I’m not listening to two tracks in the same time).
• Drums a little bit too loud in the outro.
• Like the shimmer in the outro.
• The reverb wash in the end is a nice touch, but why cut it so abruptly in the end?

FENDER19

In a few words: Nice delay work, but the metal parts were a problem.

Details:

• Nice delays in the intro. Maybe I would like them more to be like tape delays, something more analog sounding (with sound degradation). Now it sounds too digital to me.
• The string noises in the intro a little bit too loud.
• Would love more power in the bottom end. Now I have a feeling that there is too much chaos there - the bass guitar is booming, mudding the bottom end.
• The delays that come around 1:10 are too loud and too digital. They need some life and for me cannot be louder than the main guitar sound.
• The delay on the solo guitar around 2:02 that make a fill in before the first metal part is great! The same with the ending of the second metal part.
• The solo guitar/guitar harmonics in the metal part is TOTALLY lost in the beginning and then it doesn’t sit in the mix. Too much in the middle frequency wise?
• The heavy guitar sound is too harsh and lacks power.
• The mellotron in the second metal part lacks ambience - it sounds like a cheap keyboard strings that way … I like how you’re adding some dramaturgy/diversity to it by pitch shifting, but I still don’t like how it sounds as a whole.
• I like the delays in the outro. The drums are a too loud for me - it’s like there is a drummer and than at the end of the stage there is some band no one can see.
• The delays in the end are nice, but again - a little bit too loud and too digital.

GEROYANNIS

In a few words: Nice and proper mix, but lacks energy in the metal parts and space/ambience in the ambient parts. Too on the fence.

Details:

• The delays on the L/R guitars in the intro are very nicely fill the space.
• The harmonics are a little bit too loud in the intro - they feel disconnected from the rest. Too much in the foreground.
• Maybe some more reverb buildup in the intro would be nice, but overall I like the intro part.
• The metal parts lack power and energy. Especially in the bottom end. The distorted guitars are a little too much into highs and I would like to hear more distortion to make the sustain longer. They sound a little bit fake. I think that harshness in the guitars take the power/energy away.
• The mellotron part is for me too loud in the second metal part. It should be in the background more.
• Love how the snare fits in the outro! Maybe a little bit too loud.
• The ambient parts - for me - lack some more space-ish effects, modulation, reverbs, shimmers. It’s too proper rock/metal mix.
• The string noise around 4:08 was a creative choice - so cutting it out wasn’t what I wanted. (The string noises in the intro where there on purpose too and they play nicely with the delay)
• The low end could use more focus and punch.
• Generally the mix feels a little bit over compressed (remember it should be a mix before the mastering phase).

G-LIOU

In a few words: Needs more glue, feels disconnected and powerless.

Details:

• Ugly distortion at 00:43, 2:49-3:00, 4:11-4:14 (distorted highs hurt ears when listening on headphones).
• Bass in the intro feels disconnected from the rest - it’s not glued together.
• Not a big fan of the distorted guitar sound.
• Weak toms (for example fill in before first metal part - 2:04).
• The metal part lacks power/energy. The guitars (shred L/R) feel weak. The bottom end is weak - it should really punch in the face in the metal parts. It should be very focused and selective.
• Too loud hi-hats in the outro.
• The ambient parts - for me - lack some more space-ish effects, modulation, reverbs, shimmers. Just like the reverb wash in the very end.
• The string noise around 4:08 was a creative choice - so cutting it out wasn’t what I wanted.
• Overall it sounds like a bunch of separate tracks - they need to be more glued together.

JIM KENNEDY (JHKENNEDY5)

In a few words: More life and more glue needed.

Details:

• The file name is not correct according to the challenge rules. I know it’s a bit anal , but a rule is a rule.
• In the intro (before the first metal part) there are some places that there is almost nothing happening. Maybe the delay/echo has too short feedback/repeats or the reverb is too short... It make the mix a little dead and boring.
• Distorted guitars in the metal parts sound too harsh/fake.
• And bass guitar in the metal parts sounds not glued with the guitars - they are too separated, they are not playing well together. It feels like there is an empty spot in the mids.
• Everything feels disconnected - it’s not glued together.
• The kick sounds nice, but is too much in the background and the snare is too loud for me. The drums sounds too dry.
• As I wrote in the text files I like overusing the reverbs - I don’t hear nearly enough reverb/delays in the mix in the ambient parts. More space-ish effects, modulation, reverbs, shimmers.
• I don’t like the fade out in the end - let the reverb and delay play and give us some ambience and a chance to feel the ending. Now it’s - for me - cut abruptly with that fade.
• Cutting completely the string noises in the ambient parts killed the “real human playing” feeling for me. They can be easily too loud, but they should be there somewhere.
• The string noise around 4:08 was a creative choice - so cutting it out wasn’t what I wanted.

KOVENGARDEN

In a few words: The guitars are not reamped and the delays feel totally out of time - sorry, but it’s not a usable mix.

Details:

• The file name is not correct according to the challenge rules. I know it’s a bit anal , but a rule is a rule. Especially when there are almost two dozens of files to listen to and there is no info about you - the author of the mix - in the filename.
• The guitars are not reamped. Electric guitar - especially my EMG-81 humbackers LTD sounds rather ugly by itself. It’s, I’m afraid, a flaw in the mix that makes it unusable as a whole. Sorry.
• The echo on the guitar harmonics in the intro is not in the track’s tempo. It could be a creative choice, but for me it’s not working here.
• In the intro the guitars are too quiet compared with the bass guitar, the mellotron and the drums. They are completely lost - and the guitar should be most important here.
• The solo guitar part starting around 1:14 should play rhythmically with the delay - here the delay is not in the tracks tempo making everything sounding not in time… As I wrote in the text file attached to the source tracks - the delay/echo on the Guitar C track is very important as it’s a creative thing, not a mixing choice.
• The metal parts make no sense without distorted and reamped guitars.
• In the outro the track levels are all over the place - the solo guitar is too loud compared to the other guitars.
• As I wrote in the text files I like overusing the reverbs - I don’t hear nearly enough reverb/delays in the mix.

KURVIAK

In a few words: Some problems with the drums and generally too on the fence.


Details:

• Like the chorusy modulation on the guitars in the intro. But would like more space/ambience (delays/reverbs) here.
• The solo distorted guitar in the intro feels a little bit too harsh. And there is some not nice distortion in the highs there.
• The kick feels lost in the metal part almost completely and the snare feels too wide. Like the snare is not in a definitive place in space, but rather "somewhere out there".
• There is almost no kick in the bottom end - it should give the the mix more energy and punch in the low end. Overall the low end should be very focused and selective.
• I’m not a big fan of the distorted guitar sound, but they sound placed well in the stereo panorama. Unfortunately the metal parts lack power and energy.
• The string noise around 4:08 was a creative choice - so cutting it out wasn’t what I wanted.
• As I wrote in the text files I like overusing the reverbs - I don’t hear nearly enough reverb/delays in the ambient parts. More space-ish effects, modulation, reverbs, shimmers. Just like the reverb wash in the very end.
• There are some loud transients in the mix - like the tom at 3:29 that take away a few dB of volume of the whole (I know it could be tamed in the mastering phase, but they really stood out).

I will try to write the comments for the rest of the tracks in the weekend

[Uncle E]

Below you will find my thoughts on the first 10 (alphabetically). The rest will be in the next post. And in third post I will give you my top 6 mixes.

The suspense is killing me!

(not to mention that I need to free up the hard drive space )

[PALU]

Below you will find my thoughts on the first 10 (alphabetically). The rest will be in the next post. And in third post I will give you my top 6 mixes.

The suspense is killing me!

(not to mention that I need to free up the hard drive space )

It's not that easy to listen to 20 tracks

Ears get tired and I'm working on it in a room with my pregnant wife, my son, dog and a cat. Not an ideal listening environment And I want to really take my time to listen to every track in depth.

[bjporter]

szalonykp,

Awesome comments, thankyou. All of those I agree with 100%.

[Uncle E]

Ears get tired and I'm working on it in a room with my pregnant wife, my son, dog and a cat. Not an ideal listening environment

Believe me, I understand your situation all too well. Those cats can be so damn hormonal.

[PALU]

Ears get tired and I'm working on it in a room with my pregnant wife, my son, dog and a cat. Not an ideal listening environment

Believe me, I understand your situation all too well. Those cats can be so damn hormonal.

Oh yes - the cat is the biggest problem here

[Compyfox]

Hm... interesting feedback on my track. I can agree on certain things (like the clean/ambient guitars sticking out a bit), maybe even a lack of modulating reverb (I didn't want to drown it, I wanted definition). But I'm surprised on the "lack of lowend" and "dramaturgy".

I really played heavily with EQ on the bass (a load of lowend with EQ!) and the drumset to offer that lowend (the kick is not "muffled" per se, I used a sub-kick effect on purpose - though in retrospect, maybe the outside kick is too loud!). I also tried some automation to fade stuff into each other. And the power metal part (distorted guitars) also got a sh*tload of bass back since the original output of theguitars lacked a lot of lowend.



The feedback is definitely appreciated. Even if I don't know where to add "more modulation" in the ambient parts without messing up the whole feeling. I guess I'll wait for the announcement of the top 6 - maybe I'm being caught off guard here.

[geroyannis]

Thanks for the detailed comments. I sure know what to do if I make it to the second round.

[Uncle E]

But I'm surprised on the "lack of lowend" and "dramaturgy".

To me, your mix is the most professional and put together sounding. However, I do see how someone could interpret the lack of hard edges as being tame.

I actually think this is less of a mix issue and more an issue with the guitar tones. If you'd been able to re-amp through a Marshall, I think your mix could have snarled with the best of them.

[PALU]

Hm... interesting feedback on my track. I can agree on certain things (like the clean/ambient guitars sticking out a bit), maybe even a lack of modulating reverb (I didn't want to drown it, I wanted definition). But I'm surprised on the "lack of lowend" and "dramaturgy".

I really played heavily with EQ on the bass (a load of lowend with EQ!) and the drumset to offer that lowend (the kick is not "muffled" per se, I used a sub-kick effect on purpose - though in retrospect, maybe the outside kick is too loud!). I also tried some automation to fade stuff into each other. And the power metal part (distorted guitars) also got a sh*tload of bass back since the original output of theguitars lacked a lot of lowend.

I'm not really able to write exactly what could be done differently with the bottom end - I'm struggling with it myself.

But when I listen to my reference tracks (for example the Ghost Brigade I mentioned in this thread or in the text file attached to the source tracks) and after listening to all those mixes (listened to 16 of them) I think it's not a question of MORE bottom end, but focusing the low end on a really few elements that can be clearly distinguished. The kick there has a clear punch and the bass has a clear defined space. I can literary feel the kick moving the air coming out of the speaker. And there is the foundation and weight that bass guitar gives.

As far as I understand the guitars in such mixes are rather in the low-mids and mids - the real low end comes from the bass guitar that is usually blended with guitars - almost to be indistinguishable from the guitars.

As far as "dramaturgy" goes - I think it's a really subjective thing. I'm not very refined when it comes to mixing/music - I like big and bold. I understand why it could seem too excessive for you.

[Compyfox]

I think I get where you aim at.

Modern metal uses a "sub kick" in a more subtle way to "move" the speakers, while having the click sound smack into your head. I tried to go that route, but I think I had the "sub" (kick out) just a tad too loud. The metal guitars blend (IMO) really well with the bass (bass is already mid heavy due to the used cabin - so I had to dial in some lowend again). Actually had to make the bass really loud to give it some spotlight.


I must admit, I did not listen to any reference, I just let myself be inspired by the song and went from there. But should I be on round 2, I think I know where you aim at. And I think I'll also lower the drum OH and ambient channels by 2-3 dB to make the set a tad more dry. I think I went a bit too much late 80ies/90ies metal on this one. Though it's still not drenched in gated reverb.

To me, your mix is the most professional and put together sounding. However, I do see how someone could interpret the lack of hard edges as being tame.

I actually think this is less of a mix issue and more an issue with the guitar tones. If you'd been able to re-amp through a Marshall, I think your mix could have snarled with the best of them.

Wow - I am being honored by this feedback. I do remember your (also positive) comments on my MC01 entry and the guitars. Maybe I should add some "harshness" (mids) to the shred guitars again?

I did try a Marshall, actually also tried the TSE X30 (not sure if Peavy 5150, or Engl) though I ultimately settled for the Ignite Amps Anvil as it had the most aggressive bite I wanted. I think I then went through a 4x12 with TwoNotes Torpedo (don't know off hand currently).



EDIT:
Now I'm on the same level as with Eric - the tension is killing me. Who is on mix round 2?

[camsr]

Wow, if I knew there was going to be such thorough feedback, I would have made an entry. Sadly for me, I wasn't enthralled by the music enough. But thanks anyways szalonykp!