HELP: Replacing my RME Babyface to get more inputs

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lfm wrote:
tehlord wrote:Get yourself a PCIe Firewire card and track down a Fireface 400. I bought one recently for just £350 and it's fantastic. RME recently updated their totalmix FX software to work with the older Fireface cards and performance is fantastic.

It's got 8 inputs plus ADAT and spdif plus dual midi I/O via the included breakout cable. I have found the midi to be tighter than anything else I've tried including the dedicated MOTU Midi Xpress I got rid of last year!

I strongly disagree about firewire - ancient technology and connectors are really poor design and cables very stiff making it easy to get malfunction.
It was the choice of the pros for years, it works, it's stable, doesn't actually have any problems unless you hot swap and is compatible with TB ports. I really don't get the 'Firewire is crap' nonsense that abounds the internet.

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Ive seen some have nightmares with ADAT connections :

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 4#p6034004

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aMUSEd wrote:
skipscada wrote:
You would need to add the ADAT module for an extra € 95

http://www.thomann.de/gb/sm_pro_audio_a ... r8_mk2.htm

... but apparently it's very good.
Ah I thought it was included, still a step up from the Behringer in quality.

Yes! Does look like a good alternative - and still pretty cheap all in all, thanks for that :tu:

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tehlord wrote: It was the choice of the pros for years, it works, it's stable, doesn't actually have any problems unless you hot swap and is compatible with TB ports. I really don't get the 'Firewire is crap' nonsense that abounds the internet.
Use your cpu as you like - I want mine for daw+plugins.

Start up computer with interface turned off.
Look in task manager performance what cpu use is.
Then turn on power of interface.

Mine showed 20% cpu on first core, from non-noticable.

Professionals choice - well they have a different demand when needing maybe 30+ ins/outs on a continuous basis. Maybe you have to use up that cpu to keep audio up. Probably an external console fed by it.

And talking to devs on interface(TC Electronics and Focusrite) if I can config somewhere how many I actually use.
- No, was the answer, drivers run all ins/outs whether you need it or not.

I got 4500 contextswitches/sec - that is a lot. That is how often cpu is switching threads, basically audio drivers wanting the busses. A normal casual timeslot for a thread is 20ms(50 contextswitches). Just as a comparison.

And in the end - I could not run ASIO below 192 samples buffer setting.
I never ran above 128 before. And now I run at 64 samples with my internal RME cards.

I eventually got firewire running - but cpu and latency made me go away.
Internal RME and never looked back.

So unless running a big studio, that also uses a lot of ins/outs, and probably also use a lot of extra hardware to unload computer cpu - I would never consider firewire for interface.

Just my view.

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If you think that the "Behringer" is cheap compared to RME, then don't use it. Same for SM Pro Audio (where there are just as many horror stories in terms of "sound" - sadly, by a lot of "hobby musicians" or from those that went by "hearsay").

Keep in mind, if you want to record at 96kHz, both the SM Pro and the Behringer ADA8200 can't go higher than 48kHz (and you still need 2 ADAT I/O pipes = 4 ADAT cables, dunno if the Babyface has that many ADAT ports, my Digiface does have it). And, I still read the occasional report that the Behringer ADA8200 also shuts down the audio ports if you don't use it longer than x seconds. Then has a reaction time of <5ms to respond again. This was considered a bug with the 8k, and according to Behringer it was said to be fixed. But I still don't trust this. (then again, didn't have an ADA8200 over to test myself so far)

Also take a closer look at devices like the Mackie Onyx, if you can even use it as ADAT expander. Most modules do have ADAT I/O, but these are mainly to expand these devices rather than being used as expander.


If you're in the budget, really think about using something like the Focusrite OctoPre. It's one of the rare ADAT modules that can run in 96kHz and are fairly affordable. Granted, it costs 440EUR street (the main Pre version, the "dynamic" verison costs 630EUR street), but this is definitely the "top of the line" you can go with ADAT.

Else, your only solution is second hand.
Or live with only 48kHz during recording (but saving several hundred quids - street price is currently 199EUR for the ADA8200)



Just my 2c.
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lfm wrote:
tehlord wrote: It was the choice of the pros for years, it works, it's stable, doesn't actually have any problems unless you hot swap and is compatible with TB ports. I really don't get the 'Firewire is crap' nonsense that abounds the internet.
Use your cpu as you like - I want mine for daw+plugins.

Start up computer with interface turned off.
Look in task manager performance what cpu use is.
Then turn on power of interface.

Mine showed 20% cpu on first core, from non-noticable.

Professionals choice - well they have a different demand when needing maybe 30+ ins/outs on a continuous basis. Maybe you have to use up that cpu to keep audio up. Probably an external console fed by it.

And talking to devs on interface(TC Electronics and Focusrite) if I can config somewhere how many I actually use.
- No, was the answer, drivers run all ins/outs whether you need it or not.

I got 4500 contextswitches/sec - that is a lot. That is how often cpu is switching threads, basically audio drivers wanting the busses. A normal casual timeslot for a thread is 20ms(50 contextswitches). Just as a comparison.

And in the end - I could not run ASIO below 192 samples buffer setting.
I never ran above 128 before. And now I run at 64 samples with my internal RME cards.

I eventually got firewire running - but cpu and latency made me go away.
Internal RME and never looked back.

So unless running a big studio, that also uses a lot of ins/outs, and probably also use a lot of extra hardware to unload computer cpu - I would never consider firewire for interface.

Just my view.

An isolated issue with firewire does not make firewire bad. The most likely culprit is a dodgy firewire chipset on your machine.

Using an old i5 I usually have my buffer set to 128 samples which gives me 3.6ms in and 4.6ms out but I can easily run at 64 samples if needed which gives me 2.2ms in and 3.3ms out. This is with a 5 year old CPU, 10 year old interface and a £10 firewire card (which I just happened to know had the Ti chipset).

Buy the right FW card and it runs like a dream.

I had a Powercore Firewire and Steinberg MR816x running into the same FW card at the same time with zero issues.

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Compyfox wrote: (and you still need 2 ADAT I/O pipes = 4 ADAT cables, dunno if the Babyface has that many ADAT ports, my Digiface does have it). .
Thanks, but I think I misunderstand this part - to run 8 channels of ADAT into an RME multiface I would need 4xADAT cables?

There is one ADAT in and one ADAT out on the multiface. I would assume that each one goes to the corresponding ADAT in and out on the ADA8000 or SMP interface - that would make 2x cables no?

Sorry if i'm being dense :wink:

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One ADAT pipe is capable of handling 8 channels in 48/24.
For one I/O connection, you need one ADAT cable for in, one ADAT cable for out. Or "one pipe" so to speak.

If you want to get access to 96/24 through SMUX (ADAT can't go higher than 48/24 otherwise), then you need two pipes. At least this was my last status on this topic.


Now, if RME would offer an AES-50 adapter, then one could incoporate Behringer's recent X32 gear - then again, they don't. But I kind of lost track of what these modules are capable off (my last bit of info was 48/24 - dunno if the racks go higher).
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The Behringer 8200 is actually a very solid product. I'm in the same boat...looking to expand my Babyface, and I'm likely going to go with the 8200. Many, including Sound on Sound in its review of the 8200 state that the pres are just as good or so minimally less than ADAT expansions 2 - 3 times the price. Unless you want to break the $1000 barrier, it doesn't seem worthwhile to me to spend more than the 8200. And if you're going to go $1000+, maybe just get a new interface altogether...I've also heard comparisons of many of the lower priced ADAT interfaces. Does Behringer sound best? No, but it does sound good - at least on the examples I've heard - definitely yes. And in the context of a mix, the differences would be even less.

Some others to consider are the Art TubeOpto 8 which I strongly considered, but as much as I love tubes, I'm not positive I want to always have to go through a tube on a pre. I'd rather buy a dedicated pre for tubes if I wanted to go there, but have the option to go clean as well. The Focusrite OctoPre2 is a nice option as well, but at 2 1/2 times the price of the Behringer. I know there are a couple others out there in the double to triple price range, but nothing really stood out as worth it.

Many over at "that other site" share this opinion about the Behringer as well - that it may be the only piece of Behringer gear that actually doesn't suck. In this case, I wouldn't disregard it only because of its name - not when Sound On Sound actually says it's a nice piece of kit. And stay away from the 8000 - had heating issues that have been resolved on the 8200.

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There's some great advice here, thanks guys!
I also forgot to mention that as I want to start using some effects in my setup, I will also need some more outs, right? I hope to use some effect pedals, so surely just a AD converter will not be enough, right? What about this piece of gear, to be used with the Babyface:
http://us.focusrite.com/mic-pres/octopre-mkii-dynamic

Or would it just be better to sell the Babyface and buy a Focusrite Scarlett interface? I'm still learning lots of this stuff... it can get quite confusing!

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The two biggest benefits to the Octopre over the ADA or most other $600 or less ADAT interfaces is the compressor/per channel and that it can go up to 96kHz.

Regarding effect pedals...you'll either go straight from your synths into the effects pedals, then pedal out into an interface (this is how I currently do it) and hopefully the pedal has a mix or wet/dry control, or you'll want to go to a mixer with a send. (or spend a lot more for an ADAT interface with sends/returns) If you want to run your external effects with ITB sounds, you'll do it the same way with either the OctoPre or ADAT, etc. Audio out of the ADAT box into effect, resulting audio back into either ADAT or regular interface. If you do go from DAW to effects, you may want a re amp box to get the signal down to Hi-Z impedance, depending on the pedal.

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lfm wrote:
tehlord wrote:Get yourself a PCIe Firewire card and track down a Fireface 400. I bought one recently for just £350 and it's fantastic. RME recently updated their totalmix FX software to work with the older Fireface cards and performance is fantastic.

It's got 8 inputs plus ADAT and spdif plus dual midi I/O via the included breakout cable. I have found the midi to be tighter than anything else I've tried including the dedicated MOTU Midi Xpress I got rid of last year!

I strongly disagree about firewire - ancient technology and connectors are really poor design and cables very stiff making it easy to get malfunction.

I never got below using up 8%(20% one core) of my new i7 daw just to keep audio up.
That after 3 months - 4 firewire cards, 2 brands of cables and two audio interfaces.
You can use that cpu better for plugins and stuff.

But anybody is free to use their cpu as they like of course.
I've read that Macs are better on firewire - but now also excluded that as interface on MB.

Seems that usb is developed further and way to go - unless having stationary computer with card slots, or docking station for laptop.
My previous Firewire interface (Mac) died when I accidentally turned it off with the computer on. I decided never to buy Firewire again.

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pdxindy wrote:
lfm wrote:
tehlord wrote:Get yourself a PCIe Firewire card and track down a Fireface 400. I bought one recently for just £350 and it's fantastic. RME recently updated their totalmix FX software to work with the older Fireface cards and performance is fantastic.

It's got 8 inputs plus ADAT and spdif plus dual midi I/O via the included breakout cable. I have found the midi to be tighter than anything else I've tried including the dedicated MOTU Midi Xpress I got rid of last year!

I strongly disagree about firewire - ancient technology and connectors are really poor design and cables very stiff making it easy to get malfunction.

I never got below using up 8%(20% one core) of my new i7 daw just to keep audio up.
That after 3 months - 4 firewire cards, 2 brands of cables and two audio interfaces.
You can use that cpu better for plugins and stuff.

But anybody is free to use their cpu as they like of course.
I've read that Macs are better on firewire - but now also excluded that as interface on MB.

Seems that usb is developed further and way to go - unless having stationary computer with card slots, or docking station for laptop.
My previous Firewire interface (Mac) died when I accidentally turned it off with the computer on. I decided never to buy Firewire again.

But...user error

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tehlord wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
lfm wrote:
tehlord wrote:Get yourself a PCIe Firewire card and track down a Fireface 400. I bought one recently for just £350 and it's fantastic. RME recently updated their totalmix FX software to work with the older Fireface cards and performance is fantastic.

It's got 8 inputs plus ADAT and spdif plus dual midi I/O via the included breakout cable. I have found the midi to be tighter than anything else I've tried including the dedicated MOTU Midi Xpress I got rid of last year!

I strongly disagree about firewire - ancient technology and connectors are really poor design and cables very stiff making it easy to get malfunction.

I never got below using up 8%(20% one core) of my new i7 daw just to keep audio up.
That after 3 months - 4 firewire cards, 2 brands of cables and two audio interfaces.
You can use that cpu better for plugins and stuff.

But anybody is free to use their cpu as they like of course.
I've read that Macs are better on firewire - but now also excluded that as interface on MB.

Seems that usb is developed further and way to go - unless having stationary computer with card slots, or docking station for laptop.
My previous Firewire interface (Mac) died when I accidentally turned it off with the computer on. I decided never to buy Firewire again.

But...user error
Doesn't matter... too delicate... one little blip and an expensive piece of equipment dead

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dubfonik wrote:Or would it just be better to sell the Babyface and buy a Focusrite Scarlett interface? I'm still learning lots of this stuff... it can get quite confusing!
If you like the RME's low-latency USB performance, you'd probably regret switching to any of the Focusrite Scarlett models.

In most cases, I would just say "get a patch bay" but the Babyface is even a little too limited for me in terms of analog I/O (I chose the MOTU Track 16 over the Babyface when I needed a small desktop interface purely due to I/O options). It it were me, and switching from the Babyface to something like the RME FireFace UFX or the new MOTU line wasn't an option, I'd be looking at the Behringer ADAs as well. Behringer sometimes (perhaps even usually) deserves its criticism, but they deliver a solid product now and then.

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