Tone is a LIE

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I find a lot of people who obsess over tone use it as a way of avoiding the hard work of creating music. As a keyboardist/synthesist, I know the temptation of fiddling with knobs, but I know when I am doing it, I am usually avoiding writing music.

Funny thing about tone is that it is so dependent on context. Personally, I dislike the sound of a Clavinet. To me it sounds reedy and thin. However there are certain songs where a Clavinet is indispensable. I have gotten to the point where I don't think about how something sounds as much as I think about it how it will fit in to my current project.
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If cake and tone are a lie, does that imply cake and tone are the same thing? Both sweet and it's oh so easy to make the mix too fat.

I understand what he's saying, and I see things similarly - as long as we're discussing music that consists of combining sounds of several sources. If you're mixing a song played by an entire band, who cares if the guitar is made of nato or rosewood. It's more important to focus on making its sound work in the mix rather than having it sound great by itself.

However. Music doesn't only consist of multi-instrumental mixes. Sometimes it's just a guy, a guitar and an empty room. A girl, a piano and an audience. In those cases, there's no mix to distract from the individual instrument, no other sound sources to blur perception. If the guitar sounds like crap, if the piano sounds like crap, no one will enjoy listening.

So obsessing about "tone" is absolutely valid and not a lie. You just need to know when it's appropriate to obsess, and you need to be able to let your obsession go when it's not.

That doesn't make either approach generally wrong, just not always fitting the occasion.
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VariKusBrainZ wrote:I agree with him.

There are so many tunes where you know an individual part would sound shitty but in the context of a tune it fits.

Its called mixing.

Tone only matters if your playing by yourself or in a sparse mix IMO.

Often you need weedy sounds as they fit
well I have to disagree and imo he totally contradicts himself when he talks of that. He plays the unplugged electric guitar and says "here, see it fits this song" and we take from that it will always fit? But even then it's the different tone that works. Tone adds character in many ways, the subject is so absurd to me I wont go in depth but I will say that one thing I enjoy a lot in my playing is squeals and the use of harmonics produced by different styles of playing. Tone indeed is they one key factor in ensuring that the use of whatever harmonic technique I am using* sounds and works in the mix. There are times where I want a lot of sustain out of a harmonic and others where I want it very subtle. All this is done with a tone change. Here's the kicker, the tone change can be as simple as switching pups, lowering or raising the guitar volume or the tone control, adding or removing gain (most of my guitars have onboard pre-amps but switching pedals as well), doesn't mean the extremes of an unplugged guitar and a distorted guitar. :shrug:

*harmonic techniques I use frequently are natural harmonics, pinch harmonics, the use of my thumb on my picking hand to snatch a harmonic out of an already sounding note, picking while dragging my finger on the top of the strings along the neck, hammer-ons while dragging a finger on my picking hand along the string, tapping harmonics and palm muting (lightly) in key places.
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Hink wrote:well here's what I have to say on the subject
You stole the words right out of my mouth!
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jancivil wrote:I guess reading this thread obviates needing to see the actual video. Thanks, guys. :)
Indeed. Some interesting perspectives to consider, though. :tu:
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Shabdahbriah wrote:
jancivil wrote:I guess reading this thread obviates needing to see the actual video. Thanks, guys. :)
Indeed. Some interesting perspectives to consider, though. :tu:
Reading this post obviates my need to read the actual thread.
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Hink wrote:
VariKusBrainZ wrote:I agree with him.

There are so many tunes where you know an individual part would sound shitty but in the context of a tune it fits.

Its called mixing.

Tone only matters if your playing by yourself or in a sparse mix IMO.

Often you need weedy sounds as they fit
well I have to disagree
I disagree strongly. That's saying mixing isn't ever about a concern with tone. Quite idiotic if you examine it for one second.

Maybe there are people that hide from musicianship caring about... well what you're saying is 'production values'. I don't care about those people a lot, and it sure isn't a basis for any thinking I would do, who cares. Tone is a part of musicianship.

I don't perform on the wood guitar any longer, haven't for a long time. I'm working with by guitar tone like a mother right now with the technology. It sounds good with the other things, I can craft the other things to suit it, I can mix. It sounds good as a solo. As a solo I'm opening it up in the stereo field. It would create potential issues this wide with the other things in the previous track, which is why I defined the space it eats. It's all about tone to me, mixing is tone.

A little while ago I had to solo one of the drum kits in Revolve One, because there was some little thing I could not place. It sounded like shit, I was very much WTF gwyne on here. It sounds really right in the mix. The TONE is right with the other things, by itself it's too bright and too scooped.

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Sure it is, so much is a lie it's ridiculous.

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I think this guy needs a course in rhetoric. Anyone who's mixed a track knows that there is a difference between a big full sounding instrument and the sound of an instrument that fits in a mix.

But, I think when a musican talks about tone, it's not really "tone" in the sense of how an engineer thinks of it. What we talk most about here should be called "character." The character, of which tone is an important part, of an instrument is very important. It's funny, I chased the tone dragon for a really long time in terms of guitar amp, but I've had the same two electric guitars for a really long time and I never think of getting another. To me, the two characters of the guitars I have cover what I want to do, so I'm done. Amps... that's another story... but, thanks to Mr. Kemper, I have a "tone chameleon" in the Kemper Amp Profiler. It sucks the soul out of any guitar amp and gives it to me! Anyway, I get an approximation of many different amps and if I like the "character" of the amp, I'll then usually make a copy and EQ it to fit in what ever track I'm working on.

I'm experienced enough to know that "gear seller" presets are usually never useful in a mix. They're designed to sound good in a music store environment. What's up to the player is tweaking those presets and making them fit in the context of the music. When ever I hear a crappy live band, it's usually because everyone in the band just picked the biggest fullest tone possible. One thing I can say is that it's easier to remove frequency content than it is to add it, that's for sure.
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Mixing is always situational. I don't think Eddie Kramer had to get real anal to address [subtract from] Hendrix's sound in the performance in order to 'fit the mix'.

I know well enough about the sound of something soloed vs in the mix. However I make the lead guitar very prominent and it's the other things that have to be tempered or cut down, for the most part. Like I said, with nothing competing I opened up the stereo field. With drums, everybody is functioning in a very tight spot, out of each other's way. However I put the lead guitar all over the map, only judiciously, quite often. The thing I'm doing, the sound is the sound. Tone is tone.

But yeah, it's pretty clear the points about the selling presets, perfect illustration is Spectrasonics presets, they sound huge out of the box and then you have to subtract, or subtract everybody else in the thing.

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I think it comes down to how one produces/mixes it...but then, in the case of, say, groups like "Electric Wizard" it is the overall sound that seems the point....

Again, context matters...lingo, not so much.
Barry
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JJBiener wrote:I find a lot of people who obsess over tone use it as a way of avoiding the hard work of creating music.
No doubt but it seems to me that there are quite a few folks who do both. How much of a difference does that Stradivarius make in the hands of an established soloist or concertmaster? Insecurity exists at all levels and yet those who are highly devoted to their craft seem to manage to pursue the holy grail of perfecting their sound without sacrificing what for some of us might seem to be more important elements of making music.

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I think this guy should quit Smoking.
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rp314 wrote:
JJBiener wrote:I find a lot of people who obsess over tone use it as a way of avoiding the hard work of creating music.
No doubt but it seems to me that there are quite a few folks who do both. How much of a difference does that Stradivarius make in the hands of an established soloist or concertmaster? Insecurity exists at all levels and yet those who are highly devoted to their craft seem to manage to pursue the holy grail of perfecting their sound without sacrificing what for some of us might seem to be more important elements of making music.
absolutely rp, but I do not agree with JJBiener's statement at all. I have a lot of time and gear tied up in getting great tone and I thoroughly enjoy it, on top of that I rarely finish songs. So on the surface that statement may look to be true and I could be a great example of it.

Here's the problem, lack of finishing songs does not equal lack of creating music. I play for the shear joy of playing, I cant explain anymore than playing takes me to a place I like to be and playing is the only vehicle I have to get to that place. IMHO not every note needs to be performed or heard by others to qualify as creating music. If I sit down for an hour or two and just jam on my guitar under headphones I am still creating music and more important for me it's bringing me the desired benefits of playing. Then of course there is what I learn when no one is listening and no one will ever hear, learning equals growth.

When I get (or build) new gear and sit down to chase tone I am playing it a lot but not only is the playing taking me where I want to go it's showing me new routes and opening doors. Chasing guitar tones does not hinder my creation of music, at least not by my definition, but it does enhance it on many levels.

There are a lot of things in creating music that could be considered hard work, but I dont look at it as work, in fact it's the antithesis, I'm playing my guitar. There is hard work involved in growing on an instrument but most of those things can be piggybacked if you will with the chasing of tone and you can accomplish them all at the same time.

And on top of all that, finding a new tone often inspires me so I am sorry I just cannot agree that the pursuit of tone (which is a more accurate description than chasing tone) gets in the way of creating music. Perhaps for others it might, but just like how experimenting with a new tuning gives me a fresh perspective so does different tones. :)
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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Yeah.

I don't buy into the idea that looking/exploring new tones gets in the way of music creation. I think that it does the opposite for me as well.

But then again, this comes from a :nutter: so what do I know. :hihi:
Barry
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