as much as I respect Fabien and TokyoDawn, I have to agree with you.kj.metissage wrote:To be honest I preferred when he was doing plugins on his own, with Patrice designing the GUI.
Is Bootsie not makinng plugins anymore?
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- KVRist
- 125 posts since 2 Nov, 2014
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Obsolete236871 Obsolete236871 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=236871
- Banned
- 821 posts since 4 Aug, 2010
There is obviously a misunderstanding.zenvoxpop wrote:as much as I respect Fabien and TokyoDawn, I have to agree with you.kj.metissage wrote:To be honest I preferred when he was doing plugins on his own, with Patrice designing the GUI.
I also liked the GUIs by Patrick very much - they are great. But the idea of collaborating with Tokyo Dawn /VladG is not a question of GUI, but about all of these guys bringing their specific sophisticated knowledge of coding, building a cross-platform framework (so that they can built 32/64 bit plugins, VST/AU/AAX, WIN/MAC etcetera), and sound processing to the table and creating great plugins like Slick EQ in the process. I would have no problem with these plugins having a GUI designed by Patrick, if this was doable. So, there is no conflict here from what I can see.
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- KVRist
- 194 posts since 1 Feb, 2011
I think the point here is that Tokyo Dawn / vladg just aren't on the same level as Bootsie, and that they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.
Beats Of The Heart - Reggae Documentary (1977)
Post-Dilla: A Comprehensive Guide to the Beat Generation:
Post-Dilla: A Comprehensive Guide to the Beat Generation:
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- KVRist
- 125 posts since 2 Nov, 2014
well that's a bit harsh and probably not true.75ips wrote:I think the point here is that Tokyo Dawn / vladg just aren't on the same level as Bootsie, and that they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.
I honestly appreciate their products equally, top notch stuff. Don't be negative.
The only thing that changed was that before the colaboration we had 3 separate entities, each with its own vision and philosophy, that looked and sounded nothing alike.
Now, we have technically speaking very solid projects (kotelnikov, slick, slickGE, upcoming mixing comp), but I dunno... It just doesn't exite and inspire me as their earlier stuff.
Honestly, I still prefer using BootEq+BaxterEQ rather than slickEQ and rather use Density+Molot+Limiter6 instead of Kotelnikov.I can't really define why...
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- KVRian
- 1265 posts since 9 Sep, 2005 from Oulu, Finland
Bootsie isn't even near any maximum potential anyway, as long as he is using Synthmaker...That will always be a severely limiting factor if he insists on using it and not learning proper development.75ips wrote: they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.
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mike the mental mike the mental https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=296977
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 167 posts since 21 Jan, 2013
to much speculation and disrespect in this post for my taste75ips wrote:I think the point here is that Tokyo Dawn / vladg just aren't on the same level as Bootsie, and that they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.
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- KVRAF
- 14656 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Sorry but this just isn't true.Xenakios wrote:Bootsie isn't even near any maximum potential anyway, as long as he is using Synthmaker...That will always be a severely limiting factor if he insists on using it and not learning proper development.75ips wrote: they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.
Bootsie (Herbert) uses SynthMaker to easier impalement a GUI. All of his code up until his last release were always custom coded, no built in SM modules. Did did however mention several times, if a GUI implementation wouldn't eat so much time and cost a sh*tload of effort, then he'd gone full native already. Actually - FlowStone would (in theory) offer x64 - though I've yet to see other devs going x64 with THEIR SM creations (looking at G-Sonique with their Pultronic).
It did turn a bit silent around Herbert, at least in public. Which is more than fine, because he created a lot of plugins in recent years that still work up until today (sans the missing x64 version, which can be bridged to that), and his maintenance work was always top notch. So I do count that as cutting him some slack and giving him some spare time for both of his hobbies (photography and plugin development), additional to his regular dayjob to keep afloat.
I mean - he's at least showing some life-signs on his homepage compared to a couple of other developers I followed and supported in recent years.
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- KVRian
- 1265 posts since 9 Sep, 2005 from Oulu, Finland
Is there any proof of that?Compyfox wrote: All of his code up until his last release were always custom coded, no built in SM modules.
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- KVRAF
- 14656 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
He said it several times, on KVR even. So take a dive into bootsie's backlog.
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- KVRian
- 1265 posts since 9 Sep, 2005 from Oulu, Finland
"He said"? OK, that's no proof then. And in any case, even if he has dabbled in writing some code, that isn't the "proper development" thing I mentioned earlier.Compyfox wrote:He said it several times, on KVR even. So take a dive into bootsie's backlog.
Has he ever produced even a simple compiled C(++) plugin? (Except for the later collaborations he has now done.) You know, those can also be done without a custom GUI. Should have been a simple matter for him to reproduce some of his Synthmaker plugins which allegedly have "custom code" in them as a proof of concept GUIless VST...
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- KVRAF
- 1866 posts since 12 Mar, 2004
All Synthmaker plugin use Synthmaker modules, anybody who says any different either hadn't used Synthmaker or is lying
Nobody can make a Synthmaker plugin and use it for only UI.
I doubt very much he ever claimed as such.
Then again, it is the stupidest silly nonsense of an argument towards SM/SE anyway "don't use native modules" really ? Do these people always eat with their fingers too because somebody else invented the spoon ?
When something is done right it doesn't need reinventing.
The only relavant argument against these packages is the poor out of date exporting (and in Synthmakers case the fact the developers dont want anything else to do with VST haha)
Nobody can make a Synthmaker plugin and use it for only UI.
I doubt very much he ever claimed as such.
Then again, it is the stupidest silly nonsense of an argument towards SM/SE anyway "don't use native modules" really ? Do these people always eat with their fingers too because somebody else invented the spoon ?
When something is done right it doesn't need reinventing.
The only relavant argument against these packages is the poor out of date exporting (and in Synthmakers case the fact the developers dont want anything else to do with VST haha)
Duh
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- KVRAF
- 14656 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
*sigh* One of those... "pix or it didn't happen" moments it seems.Xenakios wrote:"He said"? OK, that's no proof then. And in any case, even if he has dabbled in writing some code, that isn't the "proper development" thing I mentioned earlier.
A couple of starting points - and yes, I actually blew 45 minutes on digging through the backlogs on KVR, his own blog and my personal mails with Herbert first.
A couple of examples:
http://rekkerd.org/bootsy-releases-rescue-vst/ (mentions "crucial parts written in assembler")
https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/20 ... /epicverb/ (same on the official blog)
The manual of BootEQ MkII on page 9 also mentions:
SSE and Assembler optimized sound engine
Something he omitted in later manual releases - because the info was no more relevant.
Then one random post on the SynthMaker boards by bootsie/Herbert:
http://www.synthmaker.co.uk/forum/viewt ... f=7&t=9290
And another random thread on KVR audio from 2011, that mentions (again) that VoS plugins are written in ASM, and only the GUI (shell) is SM:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6&t=313231
He is using Assembler.Xenakios wrote:Has he ever produced even a simple compiled C(++) plugin?
Oh hey... he can't "properly code" if he's insisting on using SynthMaker for easier GUI implementation, and not C++ to create a "GUI-less plugin as proof of concept". This is the very reason why he stopped answering on major music related boards.Xenakios wrote:(Except for the later collaborations he has now done.) You know, those can also be done without a custom GUI. Should have been a simple matter for him to reproduce some of his Synthmaker plugins which allegedly have "custom code" in them as a proof of concept GUIless VST...
Know a bit of German? If so:
http://recording.de/Community/Forum/Rec ... ma_16.html
One question though - why was it so hard to do the research yourself? Then again, it's simpler to bark up he tree of a respected plugin programmer - and in the same breath saying that he's deceiving us with sticking to SynthMaker/FlowStone.
You mean VST3 rather... But I do get your point.bungle wrote:The only relavant argument against these packages is the poor out of date exporting (and in Synthmakers case the fact the developers dont want anything else to do with VST haha)
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- KVRian
- 1265 posts since 9 Sep, 2005 from Oulu, Finland
That doesn't impress me one bit. Using assembler is one of the best ways to ensure one's code can never be ported cleanly and easily to other systems than it was originally written for. A sign of a developer who doesn't have any plan for what he is doing.Compyfox wrote: He is using Assembler.
How come did the "all custom code, no Synthmaker modules" now turn into "crucial parts written in SSE/Assembler"...? What are those "crucial parts"? Is it just about CPU efficiency? Did Bootsie write any code in assembler that couldn't have been achieved with the Synthmaker built-in modules, only running slower?
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- KVRAF
- 14656 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Not sure if serious...
We have a classical situation of "disbelieve" and "arrogance" that something doesn't go the users' way. Giving up here.
We have a classical situation of "disbelieve" and "arrogance" that something doesn't go the users' way. Giving up here.
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- KVRAF
- 1866 posts since 12 Mar, 2004
In a plugin the size of Bootsies (and yes i am a Synthmaker expert, alpha tester, beta tester on the original and the now discontinued second genwration) Assembly offers little in the way of speed increases or any other advantags unless one knows assembly better than they know SM itself, this is no slight on Bootsie, but claiming that anything is of better quality/value because it has been designed one way or another in SM is pure nonsense.
In fact the reality is that using the native GUI controls (as he did) was one of the most flawed ways of working for efficiency, the native GUI controls design where all terribly out of date and CPU could be saved much easier by rebuilding those from scratch (something a lot of us did)
But again this is all nonsense talk anyway, Bootsie either does not want or is capable of coding his own plugins or he would/will do so, this has nothing to do with SM or german but it is a choice by Bootsie
Also may i point out here that making snypey remarks about a developer as talented as Xenakios is again, pure nonsense.
In fact the reality is that using the native GUI controls (as he did) was one of the most flawed ways of working for efficiency, the native GUI controls design where all terribly out of date and CPU could be saved much easier by rebuilding those from scratch (something a lot of us did)
But again this is all nonsense talk anyway, Bootsie either does not want or is capable of coding his own plugins or he would/will do so, this has nothing to do with SM or german but it is a choice by Bootsie
Also may i point out here that making snypey remarks about a developer as talented as Xenakios is again, pure nonsense.
Duh