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Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:42 pm

Well, I thought I may have got some kind of input from the dev's on this... Even if it was just to tell me to go away.

Am I waiting in vain? Should I just go away?

elcallio · Post by **elcallio** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:03 am

Not sure what to reply on. First off, groups in TX16Wx map samples which share sound settings across a key range. As pointed out, it does _not_ map across velocity ranges. There is of course a design rationale for this, namely that once upon a time, when one did this in real samplers (hw), a velocity layer would typically have _different_ sound settings from another vel layer, different modulation etc etc. To make good velocity mapping. Today, the art of doing that seems to have been lost, but that it neither here nor there.
TX16Wx tries to create as big groups as possible when importing SFZ stuff, but if a single sample have different, say filter, settings, it _must_ create a new group. So some clumsily made sfz:s will indeed give you a lot of groups.
As for the self-choking, I get your point. It _can_ be argued that a group would not choke itself. Otoh, there might very well be patches and programs that rely on this as well (since self-choke is essentially mono mode with generator re-trigger). So here would be needed a "self-choke on/off" switch. Maybe.
Did I miss anything?

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:07 pm

Thanks for the reply.

For mono mode yoj could have a polyphony setting per group that would generally be very useful anyway.

I understand that the groups are the way they are so it would be better (for me) if samples were not grouped together at all rather than being grouped because they have the same velocity range and sit next to each other. Perhaps you could make an option for this?

Burzukh_Studios · Post by **Burzukh_Studios** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:54 am

My vote for the removal of self choking completely ( or at least not as the dealfault behaviour - it should be optional).

I think it is partially redundant since setting a group as monophonic pretty much does the same thing.

elcallio · Post by **elcallio** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:37 am

You are wrong about mono doing the same thing. In mono mode envelopes etc. are not re-triggered when a voice is re-used, while stealing via groups choke group will.

Burzukh_Studios · Post by **Burzukh_Studios** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:40 am

elcallio wrote:You are wrong about mono doing the same thing. In mono mode envelopes etc. are not re-triggered when a voice is re-used, while stealing via groups choke group will.

Aaaaah I see that. Does the stealing/self-choking action trigger the release part of the envelope for the last instance / voice ?

Also, back to the original point, can the self-choke be an optional setting ?

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:05 pm

Well, to be honest, even if you did get the choke groups to not choke it's own group, this still wouldn't be ideal for choking hihats. For example, an open hat shouldn't choke a half-open hat. So just having a bunch of articulations all choking each other indiscriminately isn't really the best solution.

As such, I think I'll just be wasting my time if I continue trying to get realistic drums in TX16Wx.

Burzukh_Studios · Post by **Burzukh_Studios** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:50 pm

Marctwo wrote:Well, to be honest, even if you did get the choke groups to not choke it's own group, this still wouldn't be ideal for choking hihats. For example, an open hat shouldn't choke a half-open hat. So just having a bunch of articulations all choking each other indiscriminately isn't really the best solution.

As such, I think I'll just be wasting my time if I continue trying to get realistic drums in TX16Wx.

That last statement seems a bit extreme. I have personally mapped and played at least 10 detailed kits on this amazing sampler and used them on with drum pads as well as programming drum tracks. So have many others. It sounds pretty damn good.

If you could be kind enough to extrapolate on the exact behaviour you expect with respect to hi hats maybe i could suggest a solution.

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:03 am

Yeah, reading it now, it does seem a bit harsh and dismissive. Sorry, I didn't mean it like that at all. As soon as I opened this sampler up, I loved it. I wouldn't have brought my issues to the forum otherwise.

I can understand that others may not see the problems I see... but I still see them. For example, I noticed straight away that the hihats were choking themselves. To me it stood out like a sore thumb but you had to look for it.

An example of the basic behavior I'm after is the closed hat and foot chick choking the open hat without choking each other.

Burzukh_Studios · Post by **Burzukh_Studios** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:42 am

There are only two ways i can think of for doing that kind of selective choking . One is using Reaper's choke plug-in ( it chokes midi notes and you can chain as many instances with as many conditions as you like ) but it works only in Reaper.

The other is using Kontakt scripting, which I dont have experience with , though its doable im sure.

If you are using Reaper , i can help you with the first solution.

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:24 pm

It's ok, this is simple in sfz as I explained earlier in the thread.

Reaper's choke plugin? Any idea what it's called?

Burzukh_Studios · Post by **Burzukh_Studios** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:38 pm

Chokimg hazard i think.... Let me check and I will get back to you.

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:37 pm

Had a look and found one called simply 'midi_choke'. This seems to just choke by sending noteoffs which will only work for instruments that use the amp envelope and have their input notes held. This won't usually work for drums because they're usually 'one shot' samples and the noteoff is usually sent at a fixed interval just after the noteon.

Burzukh_Studios · Post by **Burzukh_Studios** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:50 am

Marctwo wrote:Had a look and found one called simply 'midi_choke'. This seems to just choke by sending noteoffs which will only work for instruments that use the amp envelope and have their input notes held. This won't usually work for drums because they're usually 'one shot' samples and the noteoff is usually sent at a fixed interval just after the noteon.

Yes it only works for the case you mentioned, which is how most use it when making kits using Reasamplomatic. But it does "both directions", so to speak , which was what you were looking for.

One other implementation that I did in tx16wx, which only makes sense when you are programming drums and using a whole lot of hat articulations , like in the drum drop kits is this :

I actually map closed to fully open hi hats to a single MIDI note where open-ness of the hi -hat is controlled by an assigned midi CC. Very easy and fast way of controlling and making natural sounding drum tracks if you are programming. This is besides having a seperate "fully closed" and "pedal" articulations that have the noraml choke group implementation. I think its in one of the earlier SmithULTD / quartertone drumkit that I did.

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:46 am

Yes, I'm mapping the various open states of the hats to one key and, as I mentioned in the first post, I'm using cc4 to switch between them.

Just to clarify, this is for capturing live drum performances. I think you can get away with a lot more when programming drums but the more you edit live drums, the more life you take out of them.

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