Anyone excited to control their VSTs with Akai Advance?

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Big Tick wrote:You can map any parameter you want but you have a limited number of physical controls to map them to (4x8 knobs and 4x8 buttons). This might sound like a limitation, but is more than that really useful for performance playing ? For fine-tuning a sound, the best interface is the plugin UI anyway.
...I agree, for performing an instrument - how many hands does one have? Doesn't make any sense if people want to have a keyboard with an amount of sliders like a big mixing console and as many knobs as a big modular synth. That's for the performance side. But in a studio situation - or precisely, bedroom producer situation (I guess, that's Akai's target market pricewise) - it may be different, as the line between producer and performer doesn't exist. So, people (myself included to a degree) seem to have the idea that they indeed need to have the same one-controller/one-function access to their VSTis like on a hardware modular synth or a mixing desk.

So, if the VIP software only allows to control a total of 64 parameters per preset, if I got that correctly, it might not be the as-little-mouse-action-as-possible solution, that people might seek, and I'm glad that you clarified that. Thanks! :tu: I take it, that the Advanced series and VIP are more geared towards performing musicians and that it is not a "total access" universal studio solution.
Big Tick wrote:You can see the mappings directly in VIP UI, or on the hardware screen.
...I know, but, I meant as a document on Akai's website, so that I can see how the plug-in is mapped. Before I get the product, then recognise it's not laid out in a smart way and ship it back, because it's too much work to remap the stuff. I suppose, you can't please everyone and one will have to remap one plug-in or another, but I want to be able to estimate how much work I'd have to put into that before I buy it.
Big Tick wrote:You can also customize the mappings, either globally for a plugin, or for a specific preset. Either way, it does not affect the preset. Based on the mapping, VIP controls (and the hardware) update to show the actual preset values.
...that's cool! In Maschine creating your own mappings isn't reflected by the presets in the database. IIRC this hasn't changed in v.2 (don't know for sure - I'm stll on v.1).
Big Tick wrote:
Lotuzia wrote:And sorry Akai, but this is the same for any wrapper solution, until one will offer to get rid of the wrapper if necessary
You have to view VIP less as a wrapper, and more like an enhancement to your DAW.
...ouch! :)
Big Tick wrote:Also, contrary to automap, it doesn't create hundreds of duplicate plugins.


That's good! :tu:
Lotuzia wrote:Well I mused with the idea of proposing some for a while, because I have made many *pro* Automap templates for my synths.

Then something happened : I used on a secondary system a cheaper M-Audio Keyboard controller on a laptop. So no Automap installed. And guess what ? All my older project could NOT find any of the instruments that I had used in the projects ....... So dozens of 'Could not find Kontakt Automap thing' when opening EACH project. And when you bypass this, you have to REDO all your Kontakt layers, mappings, multis and reload regular versions of each VSTI you have used, and find each preset you were using in each synth. Oh, you did not take a note about the presets used ? Then good luck browsing in your thousands presets for each synth. And after that I sweared that I would NEVER use a wrapper again. Whatever handy they can be when you do projects, they are a real pita if you decide for one reason to change the brand of your controller and want to open old projects, ie your work, your music. Nowadays, I largely prefer to use VSTIs that SAVE a map of the CCs inside the Vsti itself. Because this way, my projects will ALWAYS be compatible. And sorry Akai, but this is the same for any wrapper solution, until one will offer to get rid of the wrapper if necessary, with the embedded code inside. So to end the story, I decided I would certainly not offer Automap templates to my users that I would NOT use myself :shrug:
...been there, too. :(



@Big Tick - thanks for your infos. I guess, Advance and VIP in it's current state isn't for me, but I will continue watching it.



Anyway, I have the feeling that this whole thing should be viewed under a different focus, i.e. separate the controller part from the database part. I think, it would be cool to have 1) a controller that can remote control a plug-in on the DAW level without any host or wrapper plug-in and 2) a database plug-in that lists all your presets and plug-ins and that allows you to drag & drop the preset into your DAW that would load both the plug-in and the preset. The part I agree with Big Tick is that selecting a bunch of categories to specify your search is that kind of fine-control that better should be done on the computer screen. I'm much faster clicking a bunch of tags with a mouse than selecting them with a datawheel on a controller...

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loachm wrote:The part I agree with Big Tick is that selecting a bunch of categories to specify your search is that kind of fine-control that better should be done on the computer screen. I'm much faster clicking a bunch of tags with a mouse than selecting them with a datawheel on a controller...
Actually, searching from the controller is quite cool - because you typically want to preview while you search. Doing it all from the controller is much better than going back and forth.

However, fine editing a plugin with a million parameters (for example, Absynth envelopes) is best done on the computer, using the plugin UI.

Finally, until we have controllers integrating a computer with its own screen, beware of promises of "total access" universal studio solutions. For many plugins, some parameters simply can't be controlled externally. For example, show me a controller that can edit Rhino's envelopes....

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So dozens of 'Could not find Kontakt Automap thing' when opening EACH project. And when you bypass this, you have to REDO all your Kontakt layers, mappings, multis and reload regular versions of each VSTI you have used, and find each preset you were using in each synth. Oh, you did not take a note about the presets used ? Then good luck browsing in your thousands presets for each synth. And after that I sweared that I would NEVER use a wrapper again. Whatever handy they can be when you do projects, they are a real pita if you decide for one reason to change the brand of your controller and want to open old projects, ie your work, your music.
Have you ever heard of freezing the track? How many free unfrozen sounds do you leave hanging in the project? I occasionally leave sounds unfrozen only if there is a good chance I will need to use it farther in the song, but if I dont use it in 2 sessions, I freeze it. Just freeze the tracks and you will never have to worry about finding your sounds again.

I am looking at this controller for the possible live performance situation where I will not have DAW opened. Also 8 sounds per Multy not much, I have to see how easy it will be to load Multy. But again- the issue that they sold us Air and Sonivox software without letting us know that they will give them as a package with controller and then refusing to do upgrade is unforgivable to me.

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Big Tick wrote:Actually, searching from the controller is quite cool - because you typically want to preview while you search. Doing it all from the controller is much better than going back and forth.
...that is correct. I meant that part, when you want to have more than one item in one category of your query. (Btw. thanks for having a timbre category - I can't understand why others don't have this). I found it faster to use the mouse for that than scrolling and clicking with a datawheel or whatever. And usually I have one hand on the mouse and the other one on the keyboard, so I don't mind, as the controllers I have would also allow me to step through this selection once it's made. But that's just personal taste.
Big Tick wrote:However, fine editing a plugin with a million parameters (for example, Absynth envelopes) is best done on the computer, using the plugin UI.
...yeah, it's a shame you can't control all those slope points seperately, isn't it. ;) I guess, we both know, I'm talking knobs, sliders and buttons here (things you're performing with or want to automate), and not multistage envelopes (which are in fact automation - doesn't make sense to automate them again). :)

Big Tick wrote:For example, show me a controller that can edit Rhino's envelopes....
Don't get me wrong, it's totally OK - for me this system currently has some shortcomings, but you guys are just starting and I will watch the development. Who knows how it will look in a few months, when you'll have implemented what you maybe have already planned and who knows what suggestions your users will come up with.

Thank you for taking the time answering here & all the best! :tu:

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T-CM11 wrote:
Lotuzia wrote: Well I mused with the idea of proposing some for a while, because I have made many *pro* Automap templates for my synths.

........ So to end the story, I decided I would certainly not offer Automap templates to my users that I would NOT use myself :shrug:
I don't think that's still the case with Automap 4+. The regular plugin should be loaded when the automapped one isn't found.
I'm not sure about it though, I'll test it this weekend! :wink:
Sounds good. Hope you're right. This would put Automap back at the top of the pile -for me, and according to my needs and priorities-
http://www.lelotusbleu.fr Synth Presets

77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there

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Big Tick wrote:
Lotuzia wrote:And sorry Akai, but this is the same for any wrapper solution, until one will offer to get rid of the wrapper if necessary
You have to view VIP less as a wrapper, and more like an enhancement to your DAW. You can install it on both systems and open your projects on the second one, even without the hardware. Also, contrary to automap, it doesn't create hundreds of duplicate plugins.
Merci for the explanations Big Tick. Still, it's still a wrapper as I see it. Which means the software side must be installed on the computer of every member of a cooperative or pro project for example. Nice to see it is independant of the HW though.

The real risk, so that no one can be accused of speaking novlangue, is that the software becomes buggy under this or that combination of OS/Daw/PlugIns etc etc. Or that Akai and you follow different paths in the future, or the whole system discontinued like Kore was a few years ago.

And I'm not yet ready to take that risk, or to impose it to people I'm working for/with.
http://www.lelotusbleu.fr Synth Presets

77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there

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Astralv wrote:
So dozens of 'Could not find Kontakt Automap thing' when opening EACH project. And when you bypass this, you have to REDO all your Kontakt layers, mappings, multis and reload regular versions of each VSTI you have used, and find each preset you were using in each synth. Oh, you did not take a note about the presets used ? Then good luck browsing in your thousands presets for each synth. And after that I sweared that I would NEVER use a wrapper again. Whatever handy they can be when you do projects, they are a real pita if you decide for one reason to change the brand of your controller and want to open old projects, ie your work, your music.
Have you ever heard of freezing the track? How many free unfrozen sounds do you leave hanging in the project? I occasionally leave sounds unfrozen only if there is a good chance I will need to use it farther in the song, but if I dont use it in 2 sessions, I freeze it. Just freeze the tracks and you will never have to worry about finding your sounds again.

I am looking at this controller for the possible live performance situation where I will not have DAW opened. Also 8 sounds per Multy not much, I have to see how easy it will be to load Multy. But again- the issue that they sold us Air and Sonivox software without letting us know that they will give them as a package with controller and then refusing to do upgrade is unforgivable to me.
I actually dislike to froze anything. I dont need it too either. I only render stems for pro projects ( and even in this case not always ) Anyway if I reopen a project I want to be able to rerecord any track at once. And well, that's the way I work.
http://www.lelotusbleu.fr Synth Presets

77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there

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Big Tick wrote:
Astralp wrote:Interesting. What what about the DAW project without the Akai software, would that still open correctly?
Obviously not, just like a DAW project with a missing plugin.
If the concern is for collaborating with other users who don't have the controller... well, VIP doesn't require a serial number :)

Still a wrapper and is subject to the problems Lotuzia correctly pointed out, I expenrienced the same with automap.
dedication to flying

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Lotuzia wrote:The real risk, so that no one can be accused of speaking novlangue, is that the software becomes buggy under this or that combination of OS/Daw/PlugIns etc etc. Or that Akai and you follow different paths in the future, or the whole system discontinued like Kore was a few years ago.

And I'm not yet ready to take that risk, or to impose it to people I'm working for/with.
I can see your point, especially for users who have been burnt with the Kore disaster. However you are already taking that risk somewhat, and imposing it to your collaborators, with your choice of platform, OS, DAW, as well as every single plugin you use in your projects.

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Big Tick wrote:
Lotuzia wrote:The real risk, so that no one can be accused of speaking novlangue, is that the software becomes buggy under this or that combination of OS/Daw/PlugIns etc etc. Or that Akai and you follow different paths in the future, or the whole system discontinued like Kore was a few years ago.

And I'm not yet ready to take that risk, or to impose it to people I'm working for/with.
I can see your point, especially for users who have been burnt with the Kore disaster. However you are already taking that risk somewhat, and imposing it to your collaborators, with your choice of platform, OS, DAW, as well as every single plugin you use in your projects.

So why add one more layer of risk?

To me it's obvious the wrapper solution didn't work in the past because it is inconvenient for the user and expensive (kore) to mantain it for the developer.
dedication to flying

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This is why I really like the Nektar approach, it is using the DAWs existing device mapping/control surface capabilities to integrate. It might not support every plugin out of the box, but you can easily build your own maps (although not as sophisticated as the nektar ones). I do hope they develop an application to build your own fully at some point, it would be the icing on the cake. Having said that I think the recent Cubase update added more pages to the custom maps if I understood correctly, although I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

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I guess in terms of development cost/time it is much cheaper and quicker to build a generic wrapper type solution than to target each DAW individually as Nektar have done, but I would also imagine in the long run that is easier to support once the bulk of the work is done. As long as DAWs don't make any major changes to the infrastructure.

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Astralp wrote:This is why I really like the Nektar approach, it is using the DAWs existing device mapping/control surface capabilities to integrate. It might not support every plugin out of the box, but you can easily build your own maps (although not as sophisticated as the nektar ones). I do hope they develop an application to build your own fully at some point, it would be the icing on the cake. Having said that I think the recent Cubase update added more pages to the custom maps if I understood correctly, although I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

I personally believe people wasn't looking for mapping or wrappers, maybe for preset management.

Or maybe I am the only one who wants a controller with 32 encoders and proper layout?
dedication to flying

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^^^^I'm with you. I am wondering if the key beds on the nektar and the novation are the same? Anyone use both? Which do you prefer?

I am all for great integration but if the keys are mediocre it's all moot for me at least.

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Astralp wrote:I guess in terms of development cost/time it is much cheaper and quicker to build a generic wrapper type solution than to target each DAW individually
I don't think it is a matter of cost & time. It's simply a different approach. The "plugin proxy" approach (I don't like the "wrapper" term as it reminds me of automap and the proliferation of rogue dll's... ) brings enhanced plugin management right into every DAW.

Can your DAW do any of these ?
- find and preview presets across your plugins at once
- manage presets combinations (layers/split) and look them up just as regular presets
- swap presets on the fly on a playing track, across different plugins, with no glitch
- replace a plugin with another, while preserving recorded automation in a meaningful way

If all DAW's did that, there would be little need for a VIP-like product.
rod_zero wrote:So why add one more layer of risk?
Because for some users, it improves the workflow so drastically that the risk is worth taking.

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