KVR Audio

Moniatre · Post by **Moniatre** » Sun May 24, 2015 1:43 pm

Hey guys, the question may sound weird but I feel like I need help here. Most of the time I start a mix with my chord progression. It's usually about 4 notes playing at the same time (3 chord notes+bass note). I feel like the chords are really important as they are in a way the foundation of a song. The problem is that sometimes I just can't seem to make them sound good. I've recently found out that if I use a piano vst the chords sound way better when I record via midi keyboard instead of drawing the notes in (it's probably because the velocity makes it sound more natural). But when I use synths for the chords (like Nexus) they sound dull, flat and boring. I know a lot of producers use Nexus for this purpose and I wonder how they do it, because I don't get it. I've tried several things like shifting the whole arrangement up and down but it didn't get me anywhere. I'd really appreciate your help! Thanks!

DJ Warmonger · Post by **DJ Warmonger** » Sun May 24, 2015 2:43 pm

I used to make some nice chord progressions in Nexus in the past, so it's not the issue

Some patches may be just to be suitable for chords, as they are inharmonic / pitch-modulated or already contain stacked chords under single note.

cryophonik · Post by **cryophonik** » Sun May 24, 2015 3:01 pm

Moniatre wrote:It's usually about 4 notes playing at the same time (3 chord notes+bass note). I feel like the chords are really important as they are in a way the foundation of a song. The problem is that sometimes I just can't seem to make them sound good.

Are you just using straight triads? If so, that's always going to sound pretty boring and generic. Start looking into chord extensions, suspensions, anticipations, etc. and get some movement going to make your chord progressions more interesting.

Moniatre · Post by **Moniatre** » Sun May 24, 2015 5:12 pm

I'm not only using triads. When I come up with chords there's not a lot of theory in place, to be honest, but I think I'm fairly good at composing in the sense that it sounds interesting. The problem often is that when I've found a nice progression that I can't find a good synth to play that progression. Recently I've found out how import it is to have mono (or close to mono) as well as wide stereo tracks in your mix, which I think has made my mixes sound fuller and "more professional". How do you guys "pile up" and treat your chord layers? Any advice you could give me on that?

Moniatre · Post by **Moniatre** » Sun May 24, 2015 7:05 pm

(i meant "important")

JCJR · Post by **JCJR** » Sun May 24, 2015 9:23 pm

The study of chords and harmony theory alone can occupy years.

Because total music complexity must hit a "sweet spot" for music to be listenable, I have wondered whether the modern EDM genre can ever be made harmonically complex. If an EDM genre song had a sophisticated chord structure, maybe it would be obnoxiously complex unless other elements were simplified to compensate, and then it wouldn't fit the sterotypical EDM genre anymore.

If you want complex chords, especially close-spaced chords, you generally do better with fairly simple sounds. Often percussive sounds such as piano or guitar-like sounds. Now a fine grand piano tone is quite subtle and difficult to synthesize, but it is "thinner" than for instance a fat stacked sustain synth pad or a huge brass choir.

Fat synth pad chords might require similar arranging strategies used with sustained "fat" sounds such as orchestra strings or big brass choir. One arranging trick for fat susained sounds is to spread the harmony-- Spell the chords so that a 4th or 5th interval is the narrowest interval allowed.

For instance, given a simple C, F, G repeated chord progression, one might spell the chords (from bottom note to top note)-- [G, E, C], [A, F, C], [G, D, B]. The voicing possibilities are near endless even with simple chords. Use some repetition and some variation. Don't do the same damn variation for five minutes!

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Sun May 24, 2015 10:05 pm

You've gotten some great advice but if we could actually hear an example, that would greatly assist us in determining exactly what your problem is as there are several possibilities.

Dull/repetitive chord progression
Poor voicing
Bad synth choice
Bad mix

And that just scratches the surface.

Let us hear something and then we can give you more specific suggestions.

Moniatre · Post by **Moniatre** » Mon May 25, 2015 10:35 pm

Hey, thanks very much for your advice so far! I haven't got round to it but I'll upload a chord loop tomorrow to show what my problem is. Thanks!

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Mon May 25, 2015 11:02 pm

Moniatre wrote:Hey, thanks very much for your advice so far! I haven't got round to it but I'll upload a chord loop tomorrow to show what my problem is. Thanks!

That would be helpful. I'm curious to hear what you imagine to be problematic with your progressions/sounds.

Moniatre · Post by **Moniatre** » Tue May 26, 2015 8:40 pm

Allright then. Just to clarify: this is not something I've been working on for a long time. I just don't know where to go from here. I often come up with progressions and chord ideas but then I can't seem to find synths that sound good together. I think it sounds too weak and not really punchy or full at all. It consists of 3 layers (lower mids/ mids/ highs). I sent them all to one bus and put a little compression and chorus + EQ on it. Is it just about finding the right sounds or is there something else I'm missing? I'd really like to get better at this. Thanks, guys!

https://soundcloud.com/sturundfry/test2

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue May 26, 2015 10:52 pm

Moniatre wrote:Allright then. Just to clarify: this is not something I've been working on for a long time. I just don't know where to go from here. I often come up with progressions and chord ideas but then I can't seem to find synths that sound good together. I think it sounds too weak and not really punchy or full at all. It consists of 3 layers (lower mids/ mids/ highs). I sent them all to one bus and put a little compression and chorus + EQ on it. Is it just about finding the right sounds or is there something else I'm missing? I'd really like to get better at this. Thanks, guys!

https://soundcloud.com/sturundfry/test2

Okay, here's your problem. You're taking this out of context. If I were to hand you a professionally done track and you were able to take apart each piece, bit by bit, you'd find a lot of instruments sound like crap in isolation. Low ends totally obliterated. Mids carved out in order to fit vocals. And so on.

Put it all together and it sounds amazing and you wonder how it's possible.

You cannot tell if that chord progression (all 7 seconds of it) is good or bad in a vacuum. You need to put it together with other things.

The punchyness you're talking about, most likely is being provided by the bass and the drums.

And, when you finally do put this progression together with something else, you're most likely going to discover that you're going to have to EQ the heck out of this as well, especially removing some of the low end.

You need to change your mindset. The synth sound I just heard is fine. Put it with something and see if it fits.

Now, as far as building on this chord progression, that's a composition thing. There are tons of books on the subject. Read them. Listen to music you like. Get ideas from things around you.

I've been writing music for 36 years and I'm still learning. This is a long process and isn't going to happen overnight.

highkoo · Post by **highkoo** » Tue May 26, 2015 10:56 pm

JCJR wrote: Because total music complexity must hit a "sweet spot" for music to be listenable, I have wondered whether the modern EDM genre can ever be made harmonically complex. If an EDM genre song had a sophisticated chord structure, maybe it would be obnoxiously complex unless other elements were simplified to compensate, and then it wouldn't fit the sterotypical EDM genre anymore.

Quoting this just because it is so rarely recognized.

Moniatre · Post by **Moniatre** » Tue May 26, 2015 11:23 pm

Thanks very much! It's great getting feedback from someone who knows what he's talking about. To me it's difficult to know at this point whether I'm going the right way or if I've made mistakes somewhere along the line. I guess I just need to go on and force myself to finsh a track already.

bmrzycki · Post by **bmrzycki** » Tue May 26, 2015 11:23 pm

Moniatre wrote:I'm not only using triads. When I come up with chords there's not a lot of theory in place, to be honest, but I think I'm fairly good at composing in the sense that it sounds interesting.

Theory is important: you have to know where your lines are before you decide to color outside of them.

Keep in mind most chord progressions on piano/organ/synth use many inversions. This is done to reduce the musical distance between each jump and is often easier to play quickly. Going from C -> G is pretty unnatural with no inversions. Try doing C -> G/B (B-D-G), it only requires the first and second notes of C going down a tone/semitone.

You've been exposed to a lot of music that does this and while G/B and G are technically the same chord, they both have slightly different coloration. In a progression they're a surprisingly big deal. It also sounds "right" in a lot of contexts simply because you've heard it so much.

What can I do to improve my chord sound?