The Truth Behind Amp Modelers

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Scotty wrote:I think he is correct. The amp modellers have arrived and we are spoiled for choice which can interfere with productivity and creativity. I had someone in the studio who vehemently wanted to use their $3000 bass amp and told me no software could replace it. He was paying part of the tab so I went along with it. I split the signal so I had a direct as well as his mic'd cabinet Part way through the session I swapped in a bass amp plug-in,dialed in the sound that worked for the track and toggled it on and off. He had to agree that the tone I dialed in was a good fit for the track. When I started to play with the virtual control room and move the mics around and change the cabinet models he couldn't believe it. He is a good player with lots of experience. I could have done it with Amplitube, Guitar Rig, Pod Farm or the virtual amps in my DAW. I have my preferences but I won't by buying any new modellers for the time being. Time to make some music.
Just out of curiosity, what sim were you using? And yes, I'm totally aware of the irony of asking that in this thread.
Brian Garrison
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lfm wrote:It's really sad when you do recordings that are to last - and don't bother more with how it actually sounds - but go for these mimic of sounds.
That's the point of amp sims, actually. They're meant to sound like a recorded guitar. Put your amp and cabinet in another room with a microphone and play it. Bam, sounds like an amp sim. :dog:
I bought this CD where they actually used a digital stage piano - for a studio recording - isn't that the sadest thing?
Not a proper piano or grand - a digital piano?

I bought a CD of Pink and True Love album - and I can say there is not a single proper guitar recorded there, all amp sims - and my stomach turns in pain.
It really depends on the sound they're going for. Why not use all the tools available? Not to mention, you could be hearing "real" sounds that are overly processed. Stop buying commercially over produced pop music and your ears will thank you.
It's pretty much like - if you use really good mikes and preamps through out a recording - the total of it all will sound sooooooooo much better. Every part just a little better - but total vast difference.

It does not matter when you make these recordings where a metronome could replace the beat section - you can go with any sound of the rest too.

Many are so used to mp3 now - they have no idea what it could sound like.
When they only have listened to halfbaked in ear phones - they will one day discover what good phones do.

But it will grow on you - and when people hear what actuall instruments sound like - from true musicians expressing themselves - it will bring the joy that nothing else can replace. This is art.

And this artifical phase of instrumentation will have it's place for background music while doing other stuff - but if really just listening to music - you want the real thing - not a bunch of noise generators clucking.

For electric guitar I have to experiment a lot - not using amp sims at all since 10 years back.
Four all tube guitar amps different brands - and a patch bay where all pre amps and power amps can connect any way.
And a range of guitars to that.

To me it's like comparing a frozen ready meal full of industry replacement chemicals, heated in a microwave - or a properly cooked meal with real ingrediences.
If having your friends over for a meal - what will you offer them?

It happends you need a quick meal - but if you want to truly enjoy food it won't do.

It's not the tools. It's the person using the tools. I get WAY better sounds now with my guitars that I spent $100-ish on and free amp sims than I did years ago with a USA made guitar and tube amps. Why? Because I'm better than I was back then. :o
Remember the iLokalypse Summer 2013

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I used to play only through amp sims, and came to understand that the sound of a miked amp (or amp sim) is completely different than the sound of an actual amp that you are standing in the same room with. I think amp sims are damn close to the sound of a miked amp, and for a hobbyist like me it is much easier, if I am going to record a guitar track, to use sims than worry about miking a real amp. However, when I am playing for myself, for enjoyment, I try to play through real amps now as often as possible.

The issue of amp sims is sort of like watches, I think. You can buy a digital watch for $5 that will tell time more accurately than a $100,000 Vacheron Constantin. The digital watch is more advanced technologically, and it is amazing to see how well it performs its function. However, there is still a true sense of wonder in owning and using an analog watch, and the market for expensive analog watches remains strong even though much cheaper, newer digital watches perform the same functions.
Last edited by bharris22 on Fri May 29, 2015 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dominus wrote: It really depends on the sound they're going for. Why not use all the tools available?
But they didn't - they used only amp sims ;)

There is this duett with someone on Pink album - played quite a lot on radio - not a bad song at all.

But there is this noise in between in background - and I thought it something wrong with my speakers or something.

Later I figured this to be an attempt for guitar - really odd - it didn't really add anything musically either.
Not to mention, you could be hearing "real" sounds that are overly processed. Stop buying commercially over produced pop music and your ears will thank you.
Very true - but still do it for reference for productions. Some are really good still, and their way to make a song become something unique I want to learn from.

I bought this Sia CD album - listening to Spotify free, it sounded not so good on vocals. But it turned out to sound something harsch thingy still from cd.

Her voice alone is fine, it's some kind of dubbing - maybe artificial stuff that producer do from a single take, don't know. It's that kind of distortion bad PA systems have on vocals when you listen to cover bands live or similar.

Rest of production is ok, just vocal that seems overprocessed.
Anyway, sliding away from topic a bit...

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I usually think when people put "...the truth about..." in the title of anything it means that I'm going to hear someone's opinion on something rather than an objective discussion.

No exception with this guy then.

Quite honestly I don't see why it matters. There are hundreds of millions of musicians in the world and I'm sure that most of them care more about playing than whether or not their sound fits in with another person's opinion of what is right and wrong about approach to playing.
Sweet child in time...

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lfm wrote:For electric guitar I have to experiment a lot - not using amp sims at all since 10 years back.
sooo... you're berating something that you yourself hadn't used in 10 years?
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.

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bharris22 wrote:I used to play only through amp sims, and came to understand that the sound of a miked amp (or amp sim) is completely different to the sound of an actual amp that you are standing in the same room with. I think amp sims are damn close to the sound of a miked amp...
i think is more than half of it... stick a 57 in front of just about any amp, you'll get the sound of countless records. but it doesn't like sound standing in front of an amp. (the other part is that i tend to run my amp sims at lower volume... if you just turn it up louder, it sounds closer to a real amp).

i don't know... i've played through some real amps, some i sounded good through (sunn 100s, H&K blues master - i still miss that box, others), some I didn't (egnater rebel, fender blues jr, others). some amp sims i like, some i don't. i thought my pod x3 live sounded decent until I got amplitube, then it sounded hard and weird (and still does to me). i got recabinet and thought 'wow! way better than amplitube', and then two days later pulled it up to hear muddy, midrangey sludge (and then to love it again a couple days later again). i'll even pull up the exact same preset I played yesterday, and play today, and it sounds like crap, even though I thought it sounded great yesterday. this even happened with the real amps too, btw.

now, i'm not anything close to a good guitarist, and I can certainly hear the differences between amp sims and even between amps, but I've also learned that a lot of what makes an amp sound good _to me_ is in the post-processing anyways - eq'ing out muddiness, adding some sparkle, etc. there are so many variables - the player, the player on that day in that mood, the guitar, how in-tune the guitar is at the moment, what volume you are monitoring at, what pedals you're running, the input tone/level on the guitar, etc. - that I'd need to be tweaking/trying different amp/guitar combos anyways to get what I need, so I'm glad to have amp sims - it gives me a chance at least of finding some combination of settings I actually can stand to listen to, and I know (more or less) how to tweak it when it isn't sounding right to me.

if you're lucky enough to 'just plug in' to a real amp and have it always sound good all day, every day, i'm happy for you, i just haven't had that experience with any amp, tube, solid state, or sim...

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chroma wrote:i think is more than half of it... stick a 57 in front of just about any amp, you'll get the sound of countless records
OTOH, on countless other records, they had to work damn hard to get the sound they actually recorded. The disparity between perceived 'tone' and what actually hits the input on a DAW actually makes a pretty good argument for the pragmatism of using an amp sim.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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Just use whatever ampsim one can afford but then start converting to analog...

Start with buying overdrive/distortion pedals. Even with loads of distortion one will notice the improved dynamics and sharpness of tone, even the most affordable pedals (preferably classics like ds1,ts9...) should work nice.

Then either buy tech 21 stuff or an amp with a loadbox. Then pretty much you get to that expensive studio sound.

A mic and cab. can be used at home, but I stopped there as ir's did it for me. To match into a mix, even the not so good ir's can be useful once you get the analog stuff I mentioned. It's faster to work with them too.

Now all is left are the modulation type fx, these are the best DAW tech. can offer. Like reverb, delay,chorus...I don't think even pro studios are using analog eqipments for these fx nowadays.

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Cooker wrote:...I don't think even pro studios are using analog eqipments for these fx nowadays.
And a lot of amp sims are getting recorded every day now. It truly is a personal choice from here on. I like real tube amps. I like a good sim when set properly. Lately, I've been throwing various popular vst saturator plugins in front of an average crunch or almost clean amp sim settings. I'm not going to name which popular amp sim or the few saturators I've been using, but set just so, oh, my the sound is gorgeous! There are so many ways to run other plugins along with sims that I've gone almost totally ITB with guitar and bass sounds these last six months or so.

It really pays to use your ears and experiment!

[edit] I really want to add to this that throwing an amp sim on VSTi organs and synths and any other instrument is something that gets overlooked a lot. Not that it should be the way to go every time, but it can add a realism to some digital instruments so they don't sound as ITB as some will at times. Hey, amp sims are fun and handy.

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Burillo wrote:
lfm wrote:For electric guitar I have to experiment a lot - not using amp sims at all since 10 years back.
sooo... you're berating something that you yourself hadn't used in 10 years?
Good point.

Not for recording, just playing.
The ones in Fender Super Champ amp - which is all digital preamp - modified with power amp input - just to use power amp from any other preamp. A little cleaner sounding than Laney and Koch.

The last I did amp sims was in Rocksmith 2014, I think it was. Fun to play with tunes like that - but does not cut it to recording. Don't know if they licensed Amplitube or something else(vague memory of such a logo in there).

Before that I turned Izotope Trash inside out, I really tried to get something really good out of it. I spent countless hours in Trash, also did a utility to easily see which amps were combined with what cabinet etc and sort presets on those. I really did all combinations you could to find a sweet spot somewhere. Something digital about it, cannot help that - and does not respond to how you attack strings in the same way an amp does.

Then I tried to improve by phattening guitar with a tube pre amp like Damage Control Womanizer(still use that to some extent). It help a bit, but still something digital about it.

But ended up buying real tube amps all the way. Felt that Kemper and AxeFX were too expensive and not sure about second hand value. You get my 4 tube amps(15-20w) for the same money as one Kemper of AxeFx - and you can sell without too much of a loss. When Kemper came with rack version - what were second hand value of toast model? This digital stuff is worth nothing when a new generation comes along - look at Line6 stuff.

Then I got a Radial JX di box over speakers(well, a reactive load speaker coil) into computer. Then an IR(small studio) with volume envelope(rather steap first part) to get the miked up feel of standing in front of a stack.

The only thing I miss is the feel of feedback through a cabinet in a room. Did some experiments with output from computer and put phones right on guitar body - and I was almost there. Quite phattening of tone though doing that.

If to extend possibilities with a simple guitar tube pre amp - it would be to get a parametric EQ pedal - really interesting extension of how it will sound determining which frequencies saturate tube first. Then normal eq in pre amp work as post eq.

The most flexible preamp is probably Marshall JMP1 - that rack unit(if you can find used). I had it modified with removing some diodes in there, and use tubes more. But even original is good on the two clean channels if looking for tone, not all dist. You also have an output with speaker sim if you want. But this is very flexible with so many presets(100 I think) that you can dial in anything for a song, and then much later come in again getting the same sound.

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lfm, Is true love the title of the Pink album you bought?

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I've been doing the hybrid route for the last year or so. I've been using the Bogner Ecstasy/Uberschall amp in a box overdrive/crunch/distortion pedals for anything not completely clean, in conjuction with this VHT V-Drive for all manner of clean boost, treble/mid/bass boost fattening depending on if I am using single coil or humbuckers, and it has different overdrive clipping modes. Sometimes into the cleanest most pedal friendly clean ampsim, or into a power amp simulation into cab sim/IR. I'd like to eventually get a nice compressor pedal in the chain somewhere and some sort of EQ pedal. I also will run my Soldano Hot Rod 50 head's direct out into power amp sim and cab sim/IR. For pristine cleans I sometimes don't use any amp simulation, and maybe just brighten and fatten up the signal with the boost pedal and whatever post plugin fx are needed.

If I am really having a hard time getting a guitar track to cut through and have some defined place/part in a mix, I will mic up the amp on a lower volume with a condenser mic either right up close or backed away a few inches. This is really nice for getting sparkly chimey cleaner/slight overdriven sounds, that really have some body to them instead of just an "cab sim sound"

My friend has been doing home recording and also plays in large church band, going same route, and is amp-less and cab-less so to speak, but his rig does not rely any plugin/computer fx what so ever. He has a pedal board full of about 5-6 different overdrives and a fuzz set to different light drives and boost amounts, or more like colors, which allows him to combine different ones in the gain staging. He was using a few different amp in the box tube pedals, i.e. The Blackbird dumble clone, Randall pedal pre, etc. He now has the Matchless Hotbox tube preamp pedal, and then since has bought a Mesa Rectifier Recording preamp. The signal then goes out to an graphic eq pedal, and tc spark boost, then to the TWO Notes Torpedo cab sim pedal version, then into boss chorus pedal, boss delay, and then finally into the Strymon Big Sky reverb. He has a lot of tonal options at his fingers/feet and it sounds amazing through studio monitors, phones, a big PA in a church, or even one of his tube amps effects loop returns. You think he would want to use his Badcat, Brunetti, Fender vintage Bandmaster, or Hughes and Kettner TriAmpMK3 and various cabs/speakers. But this rig sounds just as good as a mic'd tube amp and he can carry it plus his guitar in one trip and be setup and ready go in less than a minute, provided there is a PA, mixer, monitors/phones to plug into.

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bill45 wrote:lfm, Is true love the title of the Pink album you bought?
My bad, the album is "truth about love".

One song is called true love, my mixup.

The duet song is "just give me a reason".

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