The Truth Behind Amp Modelers

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Best thing to do is a blind test of some kid... I'd say the results would be interesting.
I will take the Lord's name in vain, whenever I want. Hail Satan! And his little goblins too. :lol:

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Thanks lfm, Yet another pop CD I'm gonna have to buy. I just bought Maroon5 V,
because I kept hearing sugar on the radio.I'm gonna get the imagine dragon too.
They are studies in production. I saw a youtube video of one of Pink's guitarists
ripping it up using an amp sim I think it was a line 6 pod proxt.

Thanks for the info metalifuxx, I'm thinking of getting more pedals too.
The tech21 character pedals sound cool too. they have hot roded marshal.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJuc8Zh_qzs

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Check out the Joyo versions of the Tech21 character pedals, as well. Maybe not as good as Tech21, but for about $30 apiece there's not much risk (and IMHO they sound pretty good). I have the California (i.e., Mesa) and American (i.e., Fender) and they are well worth the money.

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I do like the Tech-21 stuff. After the Dark Terror I use The Tech-21 Liverpool Not for slightly gruff guitar stuff, but when slammed all the way it gives you a very thick distortion.

Also like and a Blackstar HS-Disxt.
I will take the Lord's name in vain, whenever I want. Hail Satan! And his little goblins too. :lol:

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lfm wrote:
But ended up buying real tube amps all the way. Felt that Kemper and AxeFX were too expensive and not sure about second hand value. You get my 4 tube amps(15-20w) for the same money as one Kemper of AxeFx - and you can sell without too much of a loss. When Kemper came with rack version - what were second hand value of toast model? This digital stuff is worth nothing when a new generation comes along - look at Line6 stuff.
Kemper only has one generation. The rackmount version is just a different housing. Second hand value of the toaster is about $100-$300 off full price. They have kept their resale value pretty well so far. If you're buying your tube amps new, they're going to lose at least 20% of their value if you resell them.

(Not that I'm a fan of the Kemper. It's a preset machine, not a tweaker's dream. Had one, sold it within a few weeks. If they come out with a second generation one that gives more control I'd consider grabbing one again.)
Remember the iLokalypse Summer 2013

Samples and presets and free stuff!

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ccDuckett wrote:Yep- it's a lot like the "tonewood" woo; nonsense designed for the sheer reason of profiting from consumer ignorance.

Having played guitar and bass for longer than being involved with "in the box" production, I know how obsessed with tone and gear players can be (and how hard some myths concerning said tone and gear are to dispel); granted, an instrument made of Lucite or aluminum will sound different than one made of maple, but there's only so many variables that go into how an instrument sounds.

Regardless, people will still obsess over what the best hand-wound pickups are, claim to hear a difference between NOS GE triple mica vs. NOS JAN Tung Sol 6072a/12AY7's, etc, etc... and will still happily pay out of their noses for such imagined differences.

Same with amp modeling.
Same goes for Beer , Wine , and Coffee people . Just get me a Budweiser , skip the wine , and just a bag of whole bean Community or 8 o'clock coffee and a cheap grinder , forget the home brew beer maker , wine vineyard tour people and fresh bean roaster people $1000 grinder people :phones: .

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I just mix mine up. Ampsims or hardware.

Mind, I can see some who would go all ampsims....it is something of a bother when space available and space needed are nowhere in the same county, let alone township!!! :x :bang:
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing

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Actually in the last year or two, some of the top pedal demo guys (Brett "Burgs" Kingman, Pete Thorn) and various other random people on youtube have been making pedal/amp-in-box pedal/preaamp demos videos using a clean ampsim direct in from the pedal or at least showing how certain pedals/preamps might sound going into something like the Two Notes Torpedo cab sim or Axe Fx etc.

In most cases, if they did not tell you before hand or visibly show it in the video, you might not know otherwise.

I have a lot of friends that gig, that play mostly covers and throw in some originals too, and they are always looking for the most efficient way to get a decent enough guitar tone with less gear they have to carry and less space it takes up, faster setup/breakdown. The talent and playing speak more to the audience in those places than whether its an ampsim or hybrid, real amp etc.

The majority of guitar players I know aren't producers or too concerned or knowledgeable about this tech anyway. If it works for them, they will try it. Even if I try to explain some of the current modern technology possibities, amp sims/cab sims, even using your phone with an interface etc, they are usually like "Wait, what you say :?: :? :dog: :ud: you lost me..."

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Dominus wrote:
lfm wrote:
But ended up buying real tube amps all the way. Felt that Kemper and AxeFX were too expensive and not sure about second hand value. You get my 4 tube amps(15-20w) for the same money as one Kemper of AxeFx - and you can sell without too much of a loss. When Kemper came with rack version - what were second hand value of toast model? This digital stuff is worth nothing when a new generation comes along - look at Line6 stuff.
Kemper only has one generation. The rackmount version is just a different housing. Second hand value of the toaster is about $100-$300 off full price. They have kept their resale value pretty well so far. If you're buying your tube amps new, they're going to lose at least 20% of their value if you resell them.

(Not that I'm a fan of the Kemper. It's a preset machine, not a tweaker's dream. Had one, sold it within a few weeks. If they come out with a second generation one that gives more control I'd consider grabbing one again.)
Thanks - yes, in retrospect we now know, so far.
And they also released a rack unit with power amp.

I looked like 2-3 years ago, and felt it was too new and too much money to take a chance. Looking at Line6 stuff over the years - had an X3 Pro rack unit, and it was half price, even followed HD Pro and it's about half price within a year or so.

Looked at Line6 JTV Variax stuff - and wonder the same thing - software driven stuff tend to loose value real quick. And Line6 could not guarantee that new generation really can fit on old guitar. Thought about replacing some high end guitars with a US made JTV, but felt it would be a waste quickly when next generation is released. I don't trust anything software driven to keep it's value - there is always a vX.0 coming.

I looked for AxeFX in any local store, or online store - it's not there what I could see.
Only sold from their own site, or maybe in the us, I don't know. Read postings from a guy at Cockos forum that had issues with internal clippings of signal some years ago - what do you do if makers are not still around? You can do nothing, compared to ordinary technology amps with standard components more or less.

If to keep one amp - it would be Laney Ironheart Studio - really well thought through unit and more flexible than anything I saw. Three channels, with a boost switch on floorboard and two EQ independent with pull switch movable crossover frequency for bass,mid, treble, various connectivitiy and reamping(over usb) abilities and a built in speaker load if not using speakers - in a suitable 2U rack unit. And it sounds good too.

And combined with floorboard stuff, and maybe a loop pedal activating a series of pedals in a click - like metalifuxx described you can do many things. Thanks for those tips, metalifuxx.

My major disappointment with just a clean amp and stomp pedals - was Cream reunion consert where Clapton had a strata, and little fender amp and stomps instead of the original gear from the good old days. Could not match that awesome sound at all - what was he thinking? Did Clapton have a fallout with Gibson, or? Fender have him hooked up completely?

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I hate every amp sim except the axe fx. Which I love. I have been converted into the cult.

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Codestation wrote:I hate every amp sim except the axe fx. Which I love. I have been converted into the cult.
May I ask - is it FX or FX II?

Do they offer hardware upgrades at reasonable cost when they shift to a new hardware generation?

Thanks.

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Anyway, I think the real truth behind Amp Modelers and all the things people have talk about in this topic is there :
  • Most of guitarists using software amp modelers have crappy audio interfaces with bad preamps, bad Hi-Z inputs, and play with a very noticeable latency (between 10-20 ms and sometimes even more). In these conditions, it is normal to think that amp modelers are evil.
  • The guitarists who are not concerned by the above point might still play with crappy instruments, with crappy lutherie and bad guitar pickups
  • Even with the best audio interface and instruments, playing with the sound of a mic'ed amp, and in front of a real guitar cabinet are two things very different, and I usually enjoy a lot more the later. Ask people who record their guitar amp in a studio and listen to their playing in the control room what they think.
  • Don't ask me to tell you the importance of good monitor speakers, and what happens when you have crappy ones, or rely too much on headphones.
  • All the software amp modelers are not equivalent. I really dislike some of them, which are not cheap at all, and I use a lot some commercial and some free ones.
  • Indeed, it's true that you might be lost sometimes with all the possibilities available in software and hardware amp modellers. It might better to have less options to invest more time doing the best possible with what we have. But in my opinion, the points above are really more important.
As a last point, I think it's very important to try to have good references when doing comparisons between all the sounds you can get from a guitar, and to try all the combinations available with hardware and software stuff. For example, you might compare all the software modelers with the cabinet simulations bypassed only and one common cabinet simulation at the end of your chain. You can even replace the amp modeler with a hardware preamp rack / pedal, and use for example the awesome TPA poweramp sim plug-in from Ignite Amps just before the cab sim. You can use a Torpedo Live/Studio with a real tube amp. I have also the Magnum 44 watts power amp pedal from Electro-Harmonix and a little real cabinet from Orange, and I send to them the signal from my audio interface with a software preamp sim. You have tons of possibilities for the cabinet sim with the impulse responses on the internet, the Torpedo stuff, the ones in guitar amp software based on impulse responses or modeling...

I do recordings of all these things then, so I can compare the sound I get from each combination without being focused on my playing. To get the best sound possible, you will need to invest time to listen to all this stuff, in a very scientific way, and if you are smart enough you will begin to use only the combinations which have given to you the best results.

At the end of this journey, you will see that you will need a lot more time and organization to have a specific level of quality if you use software instead of hardware, and that's the real issue of using software vs real stuff.

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I bought one of these for recording with in 1997...

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...and I still use it today.

Over the years I've also used other various amp sims - soft & hard - but I keep coming back to my trusty old JD10. I dunno, it's my sound I guess.

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lfm wrote:
Do they offer hardware upgrades at reasonable cost when they shift to a new hardware generation?

Thanks.
Do tube amp manufacturers?
Remember the iLokalypse Summer 2013

Samples and presets and free stuff!

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I get great tone out of both hardware and software amps & sims
You really need to spend time adjusting the various dials and sliders in order to get these things to sound the best. I think many just download software, flick thru a couple of presets(that are deliberately exaggerated-sounding, designed to wow) and base their opinions on that limited trial.
I'm having/have had great success with M-Audio Black Box, Roland COSM, Boogex2, Deep Crunch

Keep up the good work, people
expert only on what it feels like to be me
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