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andrew71 wrote:
aciddose wrote:
ASIO's days are numbered.

This notice brought to you by TEC Officer Max Walker.
I'm still more concerned about Firewire support...
Firewire is dead, now that even its creators (Apple) abandoned it. Another sad story.
Fernando (FMR)

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Why is this a sad story? Firewire is another redundant product that was created to fill a niche that no longer exists. The niche collapsed and firewire got squeezed out in the process.

Firewire existed to push forward the capabilities of an interface while USB lagged behind due to the fact that such capabilities remained impractical to implement. This made firewire more expensive, more difficult to deal with for manufacturers and so on. You were likely willing to pay the additional cost for this because you needed the features it provided at the time which were unavailable anywhere else, exactly like ASIO filled the void of a lack of standardized low latency multichannel audio interface.

At this time however these features have become entirely practical. USB now implements them far more cheaply and they are standard across all new devices due to this.

There is no practical advantage to the interface over modern USB, they are identical in every way. If you expand your system to include firewire ports, they are placed in exactly the same place root usb controllers are placed on the PCI bus with exactly the same access to processor, memory and other controllers as any other device on that bus.

I must be unaware of the purpose of such an interface. Can you come up with any explanation, what purpose does it serve?

Unfortunately from my point of view it is simply an obsolete, redundant interface like ISA, IDE, SCSI or many, many other obsolete interfaces.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.

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I've got a Projectmix I/O, which still works perfectly and I'm not about to drop the best part of £1,000 on a new interface. It works in 8.1 just fine, so unless the existing Firewire drivers work with 10, I'll be sticking with that for now.

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Jace-BeOS wrote: Apple was first to eliminate legacy hardware interfaces and support USB. They pushed the standard. They've eliminated FireWire and kept USB alongside the new thunderbolt interface. Apple mice, while shitty, have secondary mouse button functionality and have had as such for many years.
Apple was the first to eliminate MANY legacy hardware interfaces. The supported PCI when there was no PCI hardware. When PCI was in fact the standard, they changed to PCI-X, and in the next generation they jumped (again) to PCIe (and now they basically have no expansion slots AT ALL.

They created Firewire, because it was better than USB. The USB2 came to the scene. They were the last ones to adopt USB2, and only in the last couple of years did they adopt USB3. They are the only ones to have Thunderbolt (which is pretty much useless, unless you pay premium prices for external devices that could work with USB3 too). And when they adopted Thinderbolt, they bury Firerwire in the process (which was THEIR standard, BTW).

Anytime they launch a new OS version, they create incompatibilities with existing software. They even prevent machines with only five years to install the latest OS.

Their mice are shitty indeed (yet they say they are the best in the world :hihi: ). And the support for the "second" button is relatively recent (implemented much later than in Windows).

Apple "innovative" spirit is guided only by one goal - keep their platform isolated, and keep customers buying new hardware. I can't believe you call them as an example. They aren't example for anything.
Fernando (FMR)

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I'm sure if you dropped another £1k you'd end up with thunderbolt anyway which would again be replaced and become obsolete in a few more years.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.

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aciddose wrote: I must be unaware of the purpose of such an interface. Can you come up with any explanation, what purpose does it serve?
Very simple: respect for the customers. Preserving compatibility. Something you (apparently) don't give a shit (as Apple).

The peripherals people have invested good Money on are still perfectly functional, and their performance are still more than staisfactory, therefore, Firewire still serves a purpose, the very same purpose it served four years ago - allow to connect those peripherals.
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote:Apple "innovative" spirit is guided only by one goal - keep their platform isolated, and keep customers buying new hardware. I can't believe you call them as an example. They aren't example for anything.
They are a perfect example of exactly the same situation we see with ASIO. If you have something non-standard to fill a niche it will eventually be replaced and become obsolete.

Niche products are terrible things. If you are fool enough or forced to adopt them you will certainly end up with an obsolete product in little time.

You can go ahead and repeat your conspiracy theories about Apple doing this to push their products to become obsolete sooner, which may be entirely true in part.

Yet it is clear that Apple adopts these interfaces to push things forward and make their product better than their competitors. This is the reason audio and graphics professionals prefer OSX and Apple hardware. Part of it is that the things they want to do simply are not possible anywhere else at this time.

Those who adopt such technologies are impatient, and they pay the price for this in due time.

If you have adopted this technology without understanding that you would pay this price, you are a fool.
Last edited by aciddose on Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.

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aciddose wrote:An awful lot of people will notice audio latency like 200ms while they watch a movie on their laptop though, which is why low latency audio as well as latency tracking (for video sync via additional frame buffering) is actually just as important here as in the case of audio production.

For gaming this is even more critical. It isn't possible to simply add additional buffering to sync to the audio, you must ensure the latency for both audio and video is minimal. People do notice the 200ms delay between pressing a button and hearing the sound, a good aim is less than 30ms and ideally 15ms or so.

As for low latency recording, VOIP and communications such as via skype, facebook and so on come to mind. Video recording (with accurately synced audio track) is also important for all the people producing youtube clips or throwing up nonsense on facebook, twitter and all that other crap.
Could you perhaps explain and elaborate why such an extremely low latency is vital for games, Skype, or watching movies? For games, DirectSound already provides lower latency anyway as far as i know. But where is the application for movie players or Skype? Especially when a high latency is introduced due to network transfer... and on Linux you even need a special kernel to provide low latency. I haven't heard anyone complain about latency on Linux, and there are games and messenger for Linux too.

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aciddose wrote:I'm sure if you dropped another £1k you'd end up with thunderbolt anyway which would again be replaced and become obsolete in a few more years.
It will become obsolete in the next couple of years.
Fernando (FMR)

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chk071 wrote:Could you perhaps explain and elaborate why such an extremely low latency is vital for games, Skype, or watching movies?
No, because if you do not already understand it is impossible for me to explain it to you. In fact that you ask for me to explain is only your attempt to waste my time. You are not interested in learning anything.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.

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fmr wrote:
aciddose wrote:I'm sure if you dropped another £1k you'd end up with thunderbolt anyway which would again be replaced and become obsolete in a few more years.
It will become obsolete in the next couple of years.
Why do you repeat the exact thing you quoted? Did someone activate an echo machine?
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.

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aciddose wrote: Yet it is clear that Apple adopts these interfaces to push things forward and make their product better than their competitors. This is the reason audio and graphics professionals prefer OSX and Apple hardware. Part of it is that the things they want to do simply are not possible anywhere else at this time.
This is simply NOT TRUE
aciddose wrote: Those who adopt such technologies are impatient, and they pay the price for this in due time.

If you have adopted this technology without understanding that you would pay this price, you are a fool.
I have no problem in paying the price, when and where I need it. But I am mad when I am forced to pay the price when clearly, THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE IN DOING IT. Thunderbolt is a good idea that, unfortunately, will die due to the policies adopted by Intel, and is already in the process of being replaced by something else (but being you an "illuminato" you probably already know that :hihi: ). Apple itself is working on that replacement.

And Firewire 800 still serves its purpose very well. Apple decision to take it out of the last generation of Macs has no other purpose than to force users to adopt Thunderbolt WITHOUT REALLY NEEDING TO. Why do you need TWO Thunderbolt ports? Why not one Thunderbolt and one FW 800?
Fernando (FMR)

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aciddose wrote:
chk071 wrote:Could you perhaps explain and elaborate why such an extremely low latency is vital for games, Skype, or watching movies?
No, because if you do not already understand it is impossible for me to explain it to you. In fact that you ask for me to explain is only your attempt to waste my time. You are not interested in learning anything.
I'm always interested in learning something. From people who know what they're talking about. You only seem to be halfway knowing what you're talking about, at best. But always up to rant about stuff which in your half-knowledged eyes seems to suck.

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aciddose wrote:
fmr wrote:
aciddose wrote:I'm sure if you dropped another £1k you'd end up with thunderbolt anyway which would again be replaced and become obsolete in a few more years.
It will become obsolete in the next couple of years.
Why do you repeat the exact thing you quoted? Did someone activate an echo machine?
Because this is (another) example of the Apple way of planning obsolescence. They are pushing something they are working to replace.
Fernando (FMR)

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You can always use Thunderbolt / Firewire adapter :hihi:

Btw. I totally agree with Aciddose, that is all
circuit modeling and 0-dfb filters are cool

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