New Xhip alpha

[aciddose]

Hi again, please don´t take this as if i´m insisting on you to look into this, as i told you before, as long as i can load single wav files its fine with me , i´m just testing and informing you on this tests so in the future this can or not be helpful ...

I suspect there is a problem somewhere, although I don't know where it is. Don't worry, I'm not spending a majority of my time on this issue (not even a small fraction really) so it isn't a problem.

If there is some specific reason the 32-bit or 64-bit version act differently in this case it makes me far more suspicious of a real bug.

Other thing i found was different between the 32 bit and the 64 bit versions was that problem i already report here, when using the 32 bit version and when loading a .wavs file, if i choose the 2nd wave its the 1st wave that is being selected, if i choose the 4rd wave its the 3rd wave that´s being selected and so on... This don´t happen when using xhip 64 bit version, this version works ok in selecting the waves.
thanks.

This is due to differences in the way floating point values are calculated on x87 (the "FPU") and AMD64 (with SSE2.)

I've fixed this issue. Since offsets into the menu are integer values but VST parameters are passed as values between 0 and 1, the integers must be divided by the range of the parameter or "normalized".

On AMD64 the rounding of values during this operation is different than on x87. The result is rather than producing 16.000 for example, it produces 15.99998. This value is then truncated to 15.

I've fixed the issue by changing the order of operations slightly to ensure this rounding error can't occur.

[bassg]

Do you have any earlier versions you can use to test? Are there features introduced in the version you're using which you can't live without?

Yes, I still have access to v7.62 and v8.02 so I can test them; just to see whether it's working or not, I don't want to go back from 8.506 since it's working flawlessly otherwise. Also, Xhip works absolutely great in REAPER for me so I can use it there (was testing it yesterday evening with no problem whatsoever).

One thing we can do to test this is I can create the client window outside the parent window passed by the host. This should display the GUI, but it will pop up free from the "frame" controlled by Orion.

http://xhip.net/temp/xhip_alpha_ext_window.zip

Does the GUI show correctly in this? ...

I will check when I am back at home and let you know. I really appreciate it, thank you!

[bassg]

aciddose, I have now installed versions 8.02 and 8.504 of Orion; it turned out I was using latest beta actually (8.605 instead of what I mistakingly reported as 8.506, sorry ) and Xhip runs fine in both. So it's definitely the regression on Orion part you mentioned earlier, must have happened between 8.5 and 8.6 beta.

I can also confirm that the plugin version with "dettached" window is running fine in all versions, including the 8.605 beta; exactly as you expected.

I consider it solved then, please don't bother with this anymore - it's clearly the host fault. Thanks again, really appreciate your help. I'll continue using Xhip in Orion 8.5 or REAPER, already looking forward to upcoming versions!

[Mutant]

I like Xhip, because it is good at matching some nice sounds from songs and other synths.
Here is a result of me toying with Xhip settings to match the sound of Diva with preset "IW Punchy Jupiter Brass" (made by KVR veteran synth wizard Ingonator) and no eq/effects:
https://app.box.com/s/kry8lb6y7azaj2dicb8ye65sd6kn8lhi

As always it is not 100% identical (would take some more effort to match the envelopes and filter frequency and keytrack better), but for my purposes (fun), it is close enough.

[aciddose]

On a plain, linear sound like that I sure can't tell any difference and normally I'd be very picky about it.

Possibly if you played just solo tones there may be some potential, but I'm leaning toward not being able to measure any difference significant enough to distinguish the two (identify which is which) and certainly no ability to hear any difference, which is what is important.

I think you'd get them sounding very, very distinct if you push the gain into the filters (+12db in Xhip, -12db on the output section amplitude) and most of all if saturation was tweaked up a bit in the filter, mostly in Xhip because the implementation is so unique, I don't believe any other synthesizer has such a filter as Xhip does and it isn't practical to create using a circuit. (It might be possible with a lot of log/exp amps, additional opamps and other sections.)

Some of the new filter modes I'm working on would sound great for these brass sounds. This on a MS-10 is one of my favorite synth sounds ever.

[Mutant]

On a plain, linear sound like that I sure can't tell any difference and normally I'd be very picky about it.

Possibly if you played just solo tones there may be some potential, but I'm leaning toward not being able to measure any difference significant enough to distinguish the two (identify which is which) and certainly no ability to hear any difference, which is what is important.

I think you'd get them sounding very, very distinct if you push the gain into the filters (+12db in Xhip, -12db on the output section amplitude) and most of all if saturation was tweaked up a bit in the filter, mostly in Xhip because the implementation is so unique, I don't believe any other synthesizer has such a filter as Xhip does and it isn't practical to create using a circuit. (It might be possible with a lot of log/exp amps, additional opamps and other sections.)

Some of the new filter modes I'm working on would sound great for these brass sounds. This on a MS-10 is one of my favorite synth sounds ever.

I was just browsing through Ingonators presets and liked this sound, so ofc a bit annoyed by Divas demo noise (it serves it's purpose right), i thought to myself "can i get that exact sound from Xhip ?".
So the idea was to not touch the preset on Diva and to hear it in a context of a real song, not just do my usual synth nerd thing and compare single notes hehe.

[edit]Oops i just remembered that i touched the preset on Diva... but just to change the quality from great to divine (which in this sound had no audible difference to me anyway).

[aciddose]

That particular sound probably would be a lot better if Diva contains a filter like from the prophet-5 and you could drive into it a bit. Try that out and it should sound great.

Xhip can do "sort of" the same with the same drive, but it won't be as "crunchy" as the "analog style" saturation. I have a filter that works the same but it's ridiculously expensive, I'm not willing to include that sort of thing Xhip has never been designed to burn up the CPU needlessly and never will. Maximum voices per core is the preference.

[Mutant]

Long time ago i bookmarked this video on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMIzCRinpg
I am sure that all my fellow lovers of great vintage synth sounds know why i bookmarked it.
This sound is a good example of what i call "ugly beautiful" - it is preset #1 on the PolyMoog and Vox Humana is its name.

Yes it is impossible to get that sound in software with the "magic" (resonators section for example) of the old hardware included.
But again for my purposes (fun), i think i got close enough.
I am 90% sure last time Xhip was on the right side and Diva on the left, this time Xhip is on the left and the audio ripped from that video on the right (which is pretty obvious because the "busted" PolyMoog goes "shhwshwssshshwhshwshshssh" all the time, maybe because it is busted or maybe because the audio is heavily compressed by YT).
I used an EQ to kill all high frequencies on Xhip side, because the compression took them away on the PM side, also there is a tiny amount of Xhip Phaser on Xhip track to get it to go "shwwhshwshwhs" too - hmm now IDK anymore if the phaser is even audible.
https://app.box.com/s/72u9y41u7kw38bdj9hf5nsh1yc2ziusr

[aciddose]

Wow that actually does sound spot-on! Great work!

I couldn't figure out what was going on in the sound at first, but it's PWM isn't it? What creates that random modulated effect though? You really nailed it!

The higher frequency "SPLOK" sounds you get sometimes in the youtube video seem to be artifacts, I bet the original would sound much closer to the Xhip version.

[Mutant]

I couldn't figure out what was going on in the sound at first, but it's PWM isn't it?

Yes, same LFO modulates main pitch and square oscillator PWM [edit] and saw oscillator detune.
Earlier today i was playing with these old samples, trying to match them with Xhip:
http://www.vstream.be/Samples.html
Which helped me a lot to tune the oscillator parameters by ear and by eye (got almost perfect match on Dust Analyzer oscilloscope), but it required some Nick Crow Tube Driver to get the oscillator shapes closer and filter keytrack amount was different too.

And THX for the compliment, but it is not as spot on when listening to A, then B - it is a bit harder to judge the differences when listening at the same time with the 2 sounds hard panned left and right.

But there is some room for improvement, that's for later though because now i am tired.

[Mutant]

Added 2nd very slow LFO to PWM, removed the phaser.
Sounds better.

[aciddose]

I did listen to A, B (fully) then by section. I thought the two are very, very close. Small differences of course and perhaps like you say the slow PWM and removing the phaser has done the trick. Those seem minor differences to me. My point was to say you certainly nailed the general sound well past the point that an ordinary person listening couldn't really tell enough difference to care.

If you want to be a synthesizer wizard perfectionist however ...

I really like this sound. This is a great example of a brilliant patch.

[WoodMan]

[quote="Mutant"]Yes, same LFO modulates main pitch and square oscillator PWM [edit] and saw oscillator detune.
Earlier today i was playing with these old samples, trying to match them with Xhip:
http://www.vstream.be/Samples.html
Which helped me a lot to tune the oscillator parameters by ear and by eye (got almost perfect match on Dust Analyzer oscilloscope), but it required some Nick Crow Tube Driver to get the oscillator shapes closer and filter keytrack amount was different too.[/quote]

Your patch sounds really good - care to share it?

I have read in other places on the web that the original uses three LFOs, one for PWM and the other two for frequency modulation on the square and saw waves, all at slightly different frequencies. However, you seem to get very close with just one LFO. How important is the Tube Driver in achieving the sound?

Thanks

[Mutant]

Your patch sounds really good - care to share it?

Sure.
Give me few minutes.

I have read in other places on the web that the original uses three LFOs, one for PWM and the other two for frequency modulation on the square and saw waves, all at slightly different frequencies. However, you seem to get very close with just one LFO.

My guess is that the 3 LFO are needed because of the structure of the PolyMoog (i don't know much about the structure, so i may be wrong here).
On Xhip, when you modulate the main pitch by +1, then additionally modulate the 2nd oscillator by +1 and 1st oscillator PWM by a small amunt it results in enough movement between the 2 oscillators that is sounds kinda good.

How important is the Tube Driver in achieving the sound?

I'll answer it with a picture in a moment, i used the driver only for matching the sample set, not the real "busted" thing from the video which sounds a bit different.

[Mutant]

Patch:
https://app.box.com/s/erlhme8xqg05j0gwg9xtavueak3skh5l
Xhip doesn't save some very important parameters so here they are:
Control / Master Volume = -25dB
Control / Voices = Poly 12
Control / Unison / Stereo ON
Control / Unison / Voices = 2
Control / Unison / Detune = 0.07
Control / Unison / Random = 0.05

It uses an old Xhip alpha with custom shaped attack part of the envelope (the envelope is irrelevant for this sound, but idk if the patch will even work in the new version).
http://xhip.net/temp/xhip_alpha_102_asymptote.7z
Provided by Aciddose in my thread from few months ago.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6112699