True analog modeling?

[Nanners]

^^^ You sir, just blew my mind, and that doesn't happen in my mid 40's very often. I have some things to consider. This moving on to explore software instruments just took a wrong turn. I have to relearn what I've learned apparently. I have also greatly enjoyed your perspective on this topic and I'm looking into a few of the plugin's you've mentioned as well. Not at all sorry I posted this in the uhe forum.

[Urs]

LOL, hehe - other people have other views, this is just mine.

I can still move this topic to instruments if you like...

[Nanners]

Well, to be honest you have answered a lot my questions and seem to have more understanding of what I'm talking about than maybe I would have gotten in the instrument forum... less clutter I guess. We have gotten right to the heart of the matter. What we are dealing with here with an instrument like Hive is something new. It is up to the individual to decide what is musical or not musical I guess but generally humans as a animal tend to agree on what sounds "musical". Basically I am going to have to stop with the sounds that I've learned and listen for new sounds and make new judgment calls. I would like to leave this here and come back to it after I have some time to mull it over.

[mystran]

Since apparently this was not intended to be U-he specific, I'll shoot.

"True analogue modeling" in my current view does not require modeling things on an atomic level, but it surely requires consistency with the laws of physics and a level of detail that surpasses perception. If I say "True" I mean methods that don't just use portions of analogue modeling and then deviate from there, e.g. for performance reasons.

I'd actually draw the line a little bit differently and set it on whether one is trying to model the analog circuit itself (or it's behavior) or simply the output it produces. From my point of view, a "true analog model" is one based on how a given circuit works, rather than on the results it produces. Quite obviously this line is still a painted on the surface of a lake and subject to interpretation.

In any case, if such a "true analog model" is sufficiently accurate, then it should produce the desired output as a by-product of having the desired behavior. If the model is too simple or otherwise inaccurate, then it will obviously deviate from the desired behavior, but I'd be happy to call it a "true analog model" (maybe not a good one) as long as it's built on the operational principles of some circuit, rather than some stuff pulled from one's hat after staring at some output wave-forms.

But I suspect my definition is not really that far from yours, just formulated differently.

[Battle Cat]

Whoa, this is a great read.

This may sound crazy or stupid, at the very least off topic, but what if models where based on water instead of electricity, say computational fluid dynamics or the like. Not talking about whooshes or droplet sounds, rather, how fluid reacts to excitation. But I am out of my league in this discussion.
Carry on my wayward sons.

[aMUSEd]

Well I guess this is all about different forms of physical modelling really, where the goal is to model the process of sound production rather than just the end result (which is what things like sampling or recreating a sound using subtractive or additive synthesis does).

[EvilDragon]

Well, In lush you choose a sample as oscillator right from the get. It's sample based. As far as NI is concerned, Absynth is sampled waveforms, Massive obviously, FM is probably ... I never liked NI because their filters are bland and sound 2 dimentional plus I don't like the fact that you have to install the service center.etc.... BUUUUUUUT I have not heard or played with monark and it is getting a lot of attention. It could be analog modeled so I would have to find a way to try it out. It could be though and that's why every one seems to be high on it. I'll look into it.

I think you've got some wrong ideas here. Lush is not sample based. It is a DSP generated waveform just like Diva. Ie. computer generated impulses like an analog synth does, but digitally generated. Absynth has several oscillator types, most of which are dsp oscillators, though there is the sample or granular type which use samples. The rest don't. I wouldn't say Massive uses samples, they are wavetables which isn't exactly the same. FM8 uses DSP waveforms, no samples.

The analog modelling thing is more about the signal path and the effect of that on the oscillators. The amp gain, the filters especially. The way oscillator functions like sync and fm work and so on. So lush for example models the SH101 oscillator setup, signal path and filters, as well as the response of the modulators like envelopes, which can behave differently in different synths. When it comes to the oscillators of the synth, it's subtle adjustments to the shape based on the real world thing it's trying to emulate. For example a saw might not be a perfect saw, but slightly rounded or something. IT might also be able to have a slight drift out of tune or something like that to model the real world behaviour of an analog device.

Just gonna quote this and say Echoes is right. Well, wavetables in Massive definitely ARE samples, but wavetables are about crossfading single-cycle samples anyways.

Absynth CAN have samples as oscillators, but it CAN ALSO use DSP waveforms. It can also do FM. It's a synthesis powerhouse. FM very likely uses lookup tables, similarly to how DX7 worked.


As for NI filters being "bland"... that is true for older ones. Newer ones - in Kontakt 5, in Monark, in Driver... are nothing short of amazing!

[rod_zero]

The engineering side is interesting and this conversation i awesome, nevertheless I think personally that some people and musicians are way too obsesed with the means and tools instead of the output (either the instrument output or the musicians output).

There is a pianist called Nils Frahm, he seems quite into vintage equipment and his show is a mix of synth/piano/drum machines/organ/analog effects but even in what it seems a "hardcore" analog purist set up there is space in his set up for a digital delay. Doesn't seem to take anything away from his music or his sound (which he seems very dedicated to), and I really doubt that digital delay is a "true analog model".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLNeZogTsK8

[Urs]

Whoa, this is a great read.

This may sound crazy or stupid, at the very least off topic, but what if models where based on water instead of electricity, say computational fluid dynamics or the like. Not talking about whooshes or droplet sounds, rather, how fluid reacts to excitation. But I am out of my league in this discussion.
Carry on my wayward sons.

To a surprisingly large degree the laws of electricity and mass spring systems are interchangeable. If you model a fluid as an array of nodes that have a mass each and that are connected by springs, the equations work the same way (the energy that leaves a node equals the energy that enters it, just like Kirchhoff's current law, that kind of stuff).

However, a more or less accurate model of a water glass will calculate a night or two for a few seconds of audio. This stuff works well for video (60 or so frames a second), but it'll be difficult to run it with 44100 frames per second

[Nanners]

Energy is never created or destroyed...only changes forms.

So, what started this all was I bought ace...and I bought hive originally. Thinking I would have analog, and I would have modern virus type stuff covered. Unfortunately when I put hive next to ace ... well ace blew it up to be kind. They do not sit nicely together for me. I put hive down and wrote it off as a trance synth and an impulse buy.

So that's what started it all. After having this conversation I decided that I may have been comparing apples and oranges here. Hive may not have been what I was expecting, but maybe I was missing out on the point of it all. I mean... Urs and company have put an extreme amount of thought and education and experience into this thing. I know Urs knows what he is talking about. He and his team are very capable. So I put ace down and simply loaded hive up and tooled around with it today.

Can I say, I'm getting some very yamaha reminiscent sounds out of this lady. She is growing on me. EXM pad 3 ... Who ever you are... that is showing me the power of hive.

[johnnypig]

Electronic Engineers have been modelling with Kirchoff's laws of voltage and current for years. It's also the primary thinking behind SPICE modeling. It cannot handle non-linearity in a very reasonable fashion, but then when it was invented programs were run from punch cards.

Today there's a bazillion approaches and modern cpus don't really even shrug at most of them. State Space is probably the most ubiquitous since it's taught in most schools and covers a huge range of fields, audio being the most niche.

Wave Digital Filters, not really being filters at all, is making ground and NI's main DSP guru uses a variant for their new filters in Kontakt, Monarch, etc. Talking about delay-free loops is likely to cause empty stares.

There's no actual rules and you can make your own physical systems using combinations of known methods, ala ancient Laplace or State Space, or just invent something and kick it til it works. Like Line6 did in the old days of PODs.

[exmatproton]

Energy is never created or destroyed...only changes forms.

So, what started this all was I bought ace...and I bought hive originally. Thinking I would have analog, and I would have modern virus type stuff covered. Unfortunately when I put hive next to ace ... well ace blew it up to be kind. They do not sit nicely together for me. I put hive down and wrote it off as a trance synth and an impulse buy.

So that's what started it all. After having this conversation I decided that I may have been comparing apples and oranges here. Hive may not have been what I was expecting, but maybe I was missing out on the point of it all. I mean... Urs and company have put an extreme amount of thought and education and experience into this thing. I know Urs knows what he is talking about. He and his team are very capable. So I put ace down and simply loaded hive up and tooled around with it today.

Can I say, I'm getting some very yamaha reminiscent sounds out of this lady. She is growing on me. EXM pad 3 ... Who ever you are... that is showing me the power of hive.

That would be me. And thank you for the compliment!

[Dasheesh]

I'm going to go on a bit of a tangent here that is coming from an artistic point of view and not as literal.

I'm learning that the point being ... is it musical? At first I didn't think so and chalked it up to the sampled wave oscillators. An instrument has to be able to connect on a human level. It has to stir emotion and it has to be able to convey emotional attributes of the user. This is as someone who sits down with a keyboard. If it doesn't connect on a human level it is just a tool. I find I get that emotional connection through some traditional instruments and through the analog modeling of earlier Uhe synths, but I was lacking it from most other soft synths. It comes from the variables in behavior which make up the character of an instrument. In it's personality. In setting itself apart from the pack. Why did we pick up this instrument in the first place? It was experimentation. A learning that peaked our curiosity.

Hive has it. It's just new to me. This is a new sound. It's doing things in a new way. It has a value in it's sound but it's new to me. Something that is taking me a minute to recognize I guess. It's a different kind of sound... not as thick or as deep, but there is something musical there if you take your time. I'm assuming that's the distortion curves involved in the different engines. They really do seem to make all the difference.

[Dasheesh]

Energy is never created or destroyed...only changes forms.

So, what started this all was I bought ace...and I bought hive originally. Thinking I would have analog, and I would have modern virus type stuff covered. Unfortunately when I put hive next to ace ... well ace blew it up to be kind. They do not sit nicely together for me. I put hive down and wrote it off as a trance synth and an impulse buy.

So that's what started it all. After having this conversation I decided that I may have been comparing apples and oranges here. Hive may not have been what I was expecting, but maybe I was missing out on the point of it all. I mean... Urs and company have put an extreme amount of thought and education and experience into this thing. I know Urs knows what he is talking about. He and his team are very capable. So I put ace down and simply loaded hive up and tooled around with it today.

Can I say, I'm getting some very yamaha reminiscent sounds out of this lady. She is growing on me. EXM pad 3 ... Who ever you are... that is showing me the power of hive.

That would be me. And thank you for the compliment!

When I found your set of presets I found something that stopped me. It was emotional and organic and human. It surprised me. It's not that any of these presets are terribly technical or difficult. That isn't the point of hive is it? These presets suddenly made hive...a more organic instrument for me. So nice job there from my point of view...hearing the emotional attributes of a new instrument and knowing not to take them too far... but letting the instrument shine a little. That was needed for me.

[Nanners]

^^^ that's exactly how I felt.