Daftest synth plugin press release blurb ever?
- KVRAF
- 5223 posts since 20 Jul, 2010
The point isn't that they made spectral/waveform comparisons, but that the waveform they were comparing theirs to was laughably bad-looking, to the extent that I'd never seen anything like it in my life.
And just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I love Tone2 synths, but I reserve the right to laugh at laughably bad ad copy that insults the reader's intelligence.
And just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I love Tone2 synths, but I reserve the right to laugh at laughably bad ad copy that insults the reader's intelligence.
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!
- KVRAF
- 12554 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
The method is more of a lever that can be used to implement something. It isn't something all on its own. This is why it has become so ridiculous to witness the term being thrown around without any justification where there is absolutely no difference whether a zero group-delay loop had been computed or not except for the fact performing the estimate and refining it (as Urs says, "to convergence") is incredibly expensive! So you end with the plugin using such methods being twice or more CPU consumption with absolutely no difference.fluffy_little_something wrote:So, I take it this whole 0df filter thingy only matters with resonance? Is there a resonance value from which one can clearly hear the difference? Usually I don't go beyond 15% or so, and that only to add a bit of bite and brightness.
Not to say there isn't a difference in something like diva for example, there most certainly is and the sort of saturation characteristics are without a doubt enabled by the so-called "ZDF" methods.
Just that is only due to much additional work. When Urs mentions "better when swept", I honestly have no idea what he could possibly mean, there is absolutely no audible difference between a properly implemented linear filter in either case other than that one with a zero group-delay loop is more trivial to get right.
The only thing I can understand is that he is referring to characteristics of sweeping a self-oscillating filter with significant non-linearity. The resulting timbre and the chaotic behavior is actually different, so this is what I assume he must mean. (Chocolate cake is "better when swept" than raspberry cake if you like chocolate. Duh, they're different things.)
Again, to say "sounds better when swept" is terribly misleading. There is absolutely no audible difference between a linear digital filter using discrete-time feedback and the linear analog prototype in self-oscillation when swept.
This is like arguing that there is a difference to your sine oscillator "when swept" vs. an analog sine oscillator. Actually it isn't "like" it, that is exactly what it is.
The difference only becomes apparent when non-linearity is at play.
Also, yes there should be no significant difference without applying any feedback. It doesn't matter if you have a group-delay free loop if it isn't actually used 15% could in theory matter though, I won't say it is impossible. Just you'd be less likely to hear any difference proportionate to the amount of feedback (resonance) applied.
Some filters however depend upon negative feedback. With these, "zero res" is actually 100% or more feedback. In those cases a zero group-delay loop is the most critical.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
- KVRAF
- 12554 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
Actually although I've just used the term, it is most obviously also technically incorrect. What the papers mention is the avoidance or removal of the requirement for a delay free loop.Urs wrote:I'd be happy to adopt "Delay Free Loop" over "Zero Delay Feedback" if that makes it any easier.
The delay free loop is not something that actually exists, it's a concept that isn't actually possible in discrete time.
That is why they talk about "removing delay-free loops", computing the desired result without using feedback due to the fact discrete-time feedback is inherently a delay.
So, "delay-free loopless" would be the best we could do to be accurate. Or "feedback-free filters".
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 7383 posts since 17 Feb, 2005
And I agree that ZDF is a misnomer as well. Delay free feedback does not exist in electronics either, it's just that the delay is very small and does not cause any issues in said device's passband.aciddose wrote:Urs wrote: The delay free loop is not something that actually exists, it's a concept that isn't actually possible in discrete time.
This is also why transistors must get smaller to increase computing speed.
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Hank the Knife Hank the Knife https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=362962
- Banned
- 301 posts since 16 Jul, 2015 from Where You Cannot Scream
I don't want to spoil all the fun, but I'd like to point out that the value of zero is nonexistent in this universe..
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- Banned
- 454 posts since 30 Apr, 2013
If something does not exist, it's value is zero.Hank the Knife wrote:I don't want to spoil all the fun, but I'd like to point out that the value of zero is nonexistent in this universe..
- KVRian
- 712 posts since 26 Dec, 2007 from Australia
So if I look into my wallet and don't see any $100 notes then are we saying that there are zero $100 notes in my wallet or just really really small undetectable amounts of $100 notes?toothnclaw wrote:If something does not exist, it's value is zero.Hank the Knife wrote:I don't want to spoil all the fun, but I'd like to point out that the value of zero is nonexistent in this universe..
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- Banned
- 454 posts since 30 Apr, 2013
You could say it's a miracle that demonstrates the devine design of the place we inhabit.
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- KVRian
- 1349 posts since 30 Mar, 2011
Well I really don't give much about what companies say about their own products. I work in marketing, so I know very well how that game works.Burillo wrote:D16 did publish those as well. IIRC MeldaProduction too, lots of em.
D16 can publish as many diagrams as they want to, but still their 303 VST does not sound like a real 303 (sounds good though).
And I remember Tone2 publishing diagrams to show Saurus's superiority above Diva - what a preposterous effort.
- KVRAF
- 3879 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
Too bad this thread has turned into a romp into anal country. Heh.
The Tone 2 press blurbs are one of a kind, to be sure. "The sound quality of Nemesis surpasses conventional synths." They excel at Spinal-Tap-esque blurbs. For Saurus 3, I propose this: "We asked: how much more analogue can this get? The answer is none. None more analogue. "
The Tone 2 press blurbs are one of a kind, to be sure. "The sound quality of Nemesis surpasses conventional synths." They excel at Spinal-Tap-esque blurbs. For Saurus 3, I propose this: "We asked: how much more analogue can this get? The answer is none. None more analogue. "
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- KVRian
- 770 posts since 2 Apr, 2003
That's sort of the point of it, zero represents non existence.Hank the Knife wrote:I don't want to spoil all the fun, but I'd like to point out that the value of zero is nonexistent in this universe..
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- KVRAF
- 5717 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
I'm all up for a bit of daft blurb. It'll make a change from the usual clichés like "searing leads that cut through the mix" and "thundering, cone-rattling basses".
I want a cone-rattling lead that flops around the mix like a drunken jellyfish for a change.
I want a cone-rattling lead that flops around the mix like a drunken jellyfish for a change.
- KVRAF
- 12554 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
I think typically they are forced to write blubs in a style used to convince customers of the value of the sounds produced by the plugin. They do this by claiming it produces sounds already known to be valuable.Gamma-UT wrote:I want a cone-rattling lead that flops around the mix like a drunken jellyfish for a change.
Unlike the rest, I have the advantage that:
- I don't have or need or want "customers"
- I don't want to produce "those sounds"
- Squid are more awesome than jellyfish and any idiot knows this, for example I do thus proving it once and for all. ONCE AND FOR ALL.
(edit: removed soundcloud link)
http://xhip.net/synth/
Last edited by aciddose on Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 5717 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
Thanks. If a bus should drive through the room you will let us know won't you?
I think you'd like this forum: http://www.reddit.com/r/eli5
I think you'd like this forum: http://www.reddit.com/r/eli5
- KVRAF
- 12554 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
Woosh.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.