Synths with the snappiest envelopes

[fluffy_little_something]

Is it gate or why else would the sound be sustained with just "a tad of sustain" on the VCA envelope? I get similar sounds with a tad of DECAY on the VCA envelope...

[Gonga]

...since the thread is about comparing DIVA to analog synths.

No, that's the other thread... too many ana vs digi threads lately lol

I'm sorry, you're right...my bad.

In the 70s we thought the blast at the front followed by a "boring" sustain only was really cool because it was so "synthesizer." Only synths can sound like that - a loud blast followed by absolutely consistent sustain. I used to set up my Roland SH with a clear bell-like sound with that click attack and it was a beautiful sound. But also, when I used to put it through an MXR Distortion (diode) followed by a Morley Wah pedal and a Mutron Bi-Phase, the effects were so pronounced that you could lose the attack. So a pronounced attack was needed. Guitars when picked have a real transient attack that helps define notes when lots of distortion is used. I found that the click attack (created with the analog envelope, not some abberant artifact) helped define the notes for my leads, and helped cut through the mud during live performance. The DIVA patch I use on Acid Eats Metal

https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/acid-eats-metal

and Time Out

https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/time-out

sounds like this without the effects:

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/diva/DIVAtarClean.mp3

and like this with them:

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/diva/DIVAtar.mp3

So that attack was the only way an "over-effected" lead could still retain a defined attack.

I apologize for the crappy playing - I just recorded this now while in bed lying on my back with no pedal. I can't really play leads without expression pedals...I have a few disabilities these days.

Also, it's a great way to define a bass. Hammer used this sound MOST of the time for his bass playing, and he was one of the best synth bassists ever. You can hear this sound on tons of his stuff, and if you're not that familiar, try "Star Cycle" on Jeff Beck's There and Back. Written by Hammer who plays all the instruments except Jeff's guitar, it has a masterful synth lead toward the end.

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/kvr/01 ... 0Cycle.mp3

[Mutant]

TAL NoiseMaker has spline / multipoint envelope.
You can use it to tune in the snappiest possible envelope, then post the patch here for everyone to hear.

I was just going to suggest that, but then i remembered that i already did.

[Gonga]

Yes, there are synths in it, I had listened to only a few secs and that at very low volume because I was not alone, sounded like very old hectic stuff, which I don't like so much, so I abandoned it after a few secs

I don't like that type of attack no matter who uses it, it sounds hard.

This isn't about what we like, it's about what the synths can do. I am trying desperately to get the thread back on track here...my point is that I have yet to hear a synth other than DIVA that can do this sound the minimoog used to do.

I think it'd be a better thread if we used a more scientific, factual approach and replaced the word "snappy" with "dynamic." What I'm talking about is the ability to produce a huge dynamic change in the shortest time. That's what DIVA does really well. Zebra can also.

[fluffy_little_something]

This isn't about what we like, it's about what the synths can do. I am trying desperately to get the thread back on track here...my point is that I have yet to hear a synth other than DIVA that can do this sound the minimoog used to do.

I think it'd be a better thread if we used a more scientific, factual approach and replaced the word "snappy" with "dynamic." What I'm talking about is the ability to produce a huge dynamic change in the shortest time. That's what DIVA does really well. Zebra can also.

Well, as far as I am concerned, it is indeed about what I like. I mean, why would I care that a synth is not capable of doing this or that when I don't want this or that anyway?
For instance your hammer sound, I had never even tried it because I was not looking for that sound. When you say no soft synth except Diva can do that sound, what are the envelope settings to try? Just a tad of sustain is not enough information...

[Lotuzia]

So many synths can sound snappy ...

[Elektronisch]

To some of us snappy is simply the speed of the envelope - so you can get a nice fast filter sweep with a "snappy" decay. But it does my heart good to read through and listen to these samples, and hear that many feel the way I do about what "snappy" means. People familiar with Jan Hammer and George Duke will remember they each used powerful envelopes with their minimoogs when playing live in order to get a very powerful lead sound. Both of them often (but of course not always) used a sound where the Attack and Decay/Release pots were turned all the way down, and only the Sustain knob was turned up just a tad. This gave a massive (you could say "clicky") attack that blasted at you. This was a signature sound for both of them - and was also used for bass by Hammer. The note behind the extremely rapid attack had a lot of dynamic - volume/amplification without a lot of noise. And to clarify, in my experience most VAs cannot get that sound, and I think that's partly why this topic often comes up.

So like others here, I don't use the term snappy or clicky...I prefer "punch," because it's a powerful sound that I am describing. That Sylenth example is punchy, though then the argument becomes "how punchy?"

In my experience, ACE is not very punchy at all. But Zebra, and especially DIVA are.

This is extremely important to me for the following reasons - this sound absolutely punches through the other muddy sounds when playing live...and it gets your attention. When playing mono legato, your playing technique is made more distinct. And the sound is not doable with many, if not most, VAs.

Here's DIVA with a punchy envelope...achieved exactly as I described above...the exact same way to get the sound with a minimoog.

https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/clearplastic

If this is what "snappy" means, then 90% of synths can do it.
I always called this kind of sound "percussive".
Very short A and D, 10% S, whatever R, maxed main volume.

Actually thats not true. Because this percussive sound is aquired by "extremes" i mean by making them to be percussive.

Some synths just have it naturaly. For ex Virus Ti, Dune 2 (by applying filter fx halfreck (or o
How its called) ), Hive, Spire and few others. But definatly not the majority of soft sytnhs ca give that sound.

[fluffy_little_something]

"Very short A and D, 10% S, whatever R, maxed main volume."

I see, one simply exaggerates the weak click by using max main volume and very little sustain, so that the click appears much louder relative to the sustained stage.

[Mutant]

that sound

What sound ?
At one point i thought the "snappy" word was defined here, but then another definition came, then came some ridiculous claims that only Diva can make it...

I want to >>>hear<<< it.
I want to load it in my DAW and >>>look<<< at the waveform.

I have Diva demo installed and i know the shape of her as... eerrrmm... ADSR.
And there is nothing special about that shape.

[Mutant]

"Very short A and D, 10% S, whatever R, maxed main volume."

I see, one simply exaggerates the weak click by using max main volume and very little sustain, so that the click appears much louder relative to the sustained stage.

But that would be "clicky" or "percussive", not "snappy"...

[Taika-Kim]

Altough to the uninitiated this discussion might look like we need help, the issue is actually very interesting.

I did recently a test of around 10 synths (Diva, the Rolands, Sylenth, etc) with a 16th machinegun bassline (note-on on each step) with a high BPM (140+, whatever). What I found to my surprise was, that the free TAL Noisemaker was among the very best, if not the best.

It's not about the specs necessarily. Zebra has adjustable envelope shape, but I failed to get a perfect sound out of it. Alchemy & Omnisphere did very badly, but this might be because their filters are not the best, Omnsiphere especially was one of the worst of the lot.

I think it´s a combination of the envelope attack shape, oscillator phase, envelope decay and release (in combination with the note length), and especially and ultimately the filter algorithm. The amplitude of the wave has much less to do with this, than what harmonics are present, I believe.

Maybe I´ll make a video one day of that test I made...

[fluffy_little_something]

So, how did those 10 or so other synths fare?
With retrigger on and phase set to 180°, Sylenth seems pretty fast as well

[cytospur]

Altough to the uninitiated this discussion might look like we need help, the issue is actually very interesting.

I did recently a test of around 10 synths (Diva, the Rolands, Sylenth, etc) with a 16th machinegun bassline (note-on on each step) with a high BPM (140+, whatever). What I found to my surprise was, that the free TAL Noisemaker was among the very best, if not the best.

It's not about the specs necessarily. Zebra has adjustable envelope shape, but I failed to get a perfect sound out of it. Alchemy & Omnisphere did very badly, but this might be because their filters are not the best, Omnsiphere especially was one of the worst of the lot.

I think it´s a combination of the envelope attack shape, oscillator phase, envelope decay and release (in combination with the note length), and especially and ultimately the filter algorithm. The amplitude of the wave has much less to do with this, than what harmonics are present, I believe.

Maybe I´ll make a video one day of that test I made...

Can you explain more about your test please as I disagree with your statement that amplitude has less effect.

[kv331]

Altough to the uninitiated this discussion might look like we need help, the issue is actually very interesting.

I did recently a test of around 10 synths (Diva, the Rolands, Sylenth, etc) with a 16th machinegun bassline (note-on on each step) with a high BPM (140+, whatever). What I found to my surprise was, that the free TAL Noisemaker was among the very best, if not the best.

Could you possibly share your envelope/preset settings with us so we could try to duplicate the sound in other synths?

Audio samples would be great too.

[Gonga]

So many synths can sound snappy ...

I'm sure you're right, but there are also clear differences. "Snappy" is very ambiguous, and so your statement is ambiguous. "Snappiness" is purely semantic.

It would be more useful to quantify the speed of envelopes imo.