Whole-tone and dimished scales?

[fmr]

Thanks again, psenior! I feel very lucky to have your inputs here, sooo spot-on! Just watched one of his workshops on youtube and his quick reharmonisation of Tea For Two is amazing! Sounds more natural and sophisticated.. I'll watch some more and track down your previous posts here, too.

Just another question if you can be bothered answering. As much as I'm intrigued by Barry Harris' diminished theory, I'm also keen to learn about Modal Jazz on compositional side of things. Mark Levine's book touches on So What, but nothing particularly systematic. Is there any book or theorist you'd recommend for learning Modal Jazz?

Maybe you could learn from Messiaen book (ouch.. no, he's dead ). Now really, it's amazing how "jazz theorists" write expensive books "explaining" what is know from more than a century, like for example regarding the diminished 7th chords... Modal music isn't different in jazz than anywhere else. As much, you will change the "style", nothing else.

[logburner]

Thanks again, psenior! I feel very lucky to have your inputs here, sooo spot-on! Just watched one of his workshops on youtube and his quick reharmonisation of Tea For Two is amazing! Sounds more natural and sophisticated.. I'll watch some more and track down your previous posts here, too.

Just another question if you can be bothered answering. As much as I'm intrigued by Barry Harris' diminished theory, I'm also keen to learn about Modal Jazz on compositional side of things. Mark Levine's book touches on So What, but nothing particularly systematic. Is there any book or theorist you'd recommend for learning Modal Jazz?

Maybe you could learn from Messiaen book (ouch.. no, he's dead ). Now really, it's amazing how "jazz theorists" write expensive books "explaining" what is know from more than a century, like for example regarding the diminished 7th chords... Modal music isn't different in jazz than anywhere else. As much, you will change the "style", nothing else.

I know it bothers me sometimes that those books are priced way higher than other regular books (and there are heaps of free tutorial websites/vids) when I could spend that much money elsewhere. Meanwhile I highly appreciate theories as they can give composition a degree of coherence and complexity with versatility, which is quite different from sound design and sequences that modern electronic music are often concerned with.

I came across with Modal Jazz as I was practicing piano and some chord progressions didn't seem well-connected in classical harmony manner like IV-V-I or ii-V-I, but sound exotic while retaining coherence. It made me curious about what gives those progressions such coherence, with a feeling that there might be mechanical patterns which go beyond basic theories. Coltrane Change is one thing, and I want to know a lot more.

[logburner]

Thanks for your suggestion anyway. I'll look into Messiaen for sure!

[psenior]

Barry plays one of Messiaen's fourth modes quite a lot. He calls it the 7b5-diminished scale it and it's a really beautiful sound once you play with it a bit and figure out how to make it work. It does have an awesome bebop sound. When used correctly it makes you sound like Thelonius Monk.

You are right, the changes are not coherent. Modal jazz does not use functional harmony. For example, modal jazz players treat a minor 7th chord as a tonic. Barry says that a minor 7th is not a tonic chord, and he is correct. He doesn't care about modes at all. To him, everything is dominant or tonic.

If you want to get into the sound of modal jazz, listen to Bill Evans and Herbie Hancock when they worked with Miles Davis.

You might want to look into the Lydian chromatic concept or Pat Martino's Dorian-based music theory concept. It's kind of all the same stuff from a slightly different point of view. After you learn all this stuff it boils down to the same scales being played, just starting from a different note in the scale. One guy says play a G bebop dominant scale, another guy says play a D Dorian bebop scale. They're the same! One guy says play a B altered scale, another guy tells you to play a Eb Lydian augmented, another says play C melodic minor. They're the same!

[logburner]

Yeah, Kind Of Blue is where I got hooked with Modal Jazz. Some of Mr. Evans' early albums, too. There are lots more I need to listen to, just haven't got there yet because these albums are sooo addictive that I can't stop listening to them and go onto the next music..

Luckily my local library seems to have Lydian Chromatic book so I'll borrow and study that. Gotta look into Pat Martinio's theory too! I guess I have so much to do before coming back to ask any further questions! Thanks so much for your input, psenior!

[herodotus]

Please excuse me for my lack of understanding the language (English isn't my mother tongue), but what do you mean by "After the first two semitone transpositions, the remaining transpositions are just the same collections of notes within the scale"?

Start with this diminished scale: {c, c#, d#, e, f#, g, a, a#, (c)},

Transpose it up one semitone and you get {c#, d, e, f, g, g#, a#, b, (c#)}, which is a different set of pitches.

Transpose it up another semitone and you get {d, d#, f, f#, g#, a, b, c, (d)}, which is yet another set of pitches.

But the next semitone transposition gives you {d#, e, f#, g, a, a#, c, c#, (d#)}, which is the same set of pitches as the first diminished scale.

This is a result of the fact that it is symmetrical within the octave. All 'modes of limited transposition' are symmetrical within the octave.

[logburner]

I see, it makes sense.

Basically there are only 3 forms of diminished scales, each has 8 versions (scale names) starting at different roots hence they make 24 diminished scales. Indeed it's easier to memorise them in such way. Thanks for explaining that.

[jancivil]

I think diminished scales have very moody feel, which sounds very different from chords derived from major or minor scales.

What I find difficult to utilise diminished scales is probably because I make chord progressions without following traditional ii-V or IV-V-I. I'd love to figure out logical approach to composition but after heavily intrigued by modal jazz stuff like "Nardis", I came to think "what? would I get much out of following those ii-V and so on?". Then just started to learn modes, and reached whole-tone and diminished scales.

It's been touched on but in a rather sophisticated way already, but here is perhaps a more basic look: The diminished seventh chord is uber-flexible and is a typical device for modulation. Say key of C minor (typical harmonic context w. raised seventh), vii°7 is, enharmonically B°7, D°7, F°7 & Ab°7. So in Common Practice Period terms, here are 4 vii°7s; or as you have noticed to make a full dom. 7th: G7b9, Bb7b9 etc.

So from this basis, your diminished scale comports as such per the dominant type harmony. Typical use on G7: G, Ab, Bb, B, C#, D, E, F. Gives b9, #9, #11 (or b5), 13. Additionally, note that the symmetry of Dim. 7th, all minor thirds is reflected in the scale, the same quality of symmetry (and redundancy in transposition). This happens to agree with flat five substitution principle: that scale on Db7b5 does the same thing. Its meaning is the same with Bb7b5, C# or Db7b5, E7b5 as well, exactly the same potential as a pivot to a new key as the diminished 7th chord provides. And, the use of this symmetrical scale, as you have noted, is a kind of untethered-seeming thing, I mean the import or meaning of tones is opened up, it doesn't belong to anything necessarily.

Also typical is i, minor is the new ii, in order to continue to cycle. Dm7b5, G7, Cm; Cm7b5 F7 Bbm; Bbm7b5, Eb7, Ab...

Modal Jazz has been touched on. No, your ii-V-I business isn't going to help with that. In fact modal jazz came into practice as a way out of the restrictions of functional harmony. A similar thing occurred in the 'classical' realm, for example Debussy trying to get away from Wagner and finding eastern musics to be inspired by.

It was stated, and by an authority, that the tonic minor 7th chord is not the tonic chord at all. Because it's only ever a ii7, I suppose (a subdominant type, NB. I suppose I can find wide consensus that this at least is a real thing). By someone that cares not all about Modal Jazz? I would pretty much have to toss that out as any truism. There's nothing wrong with a minor 7th on a minor i chord, the practice has nothing to do with ii-V-I (subdominant, dominant, tonic).
There will be pedants, we've seen it here, to argue that 'tonic' as a term refers strictly to 'tonal' music, but I would rather not waste words just to come up with an alternative term.

I tend to agree there isn't a lot to go into with Modal Jazz "theory", the inspiration to do that was Indian Classical Music, and the theory here is quite unlike western theory which is concerned primarily with functional harmony. You could get deeper into raga and why those (melodic contour) choices are made, but I think people are kind of winging it and playing by ear.

[Atza]

If you start from what chords can be formed from a scale notes than Diminished scale gives you a lot of potential but whole tone is really poor in that regard- only augmented chords can be made. But than again augmented chords are always good as passing chords and can help modulate from a chord to another chord in similar way as diminished chord do.
Here are couple of diagrams (C whole tone, and C diminished and chords that they contain):

[logburner]

Hi jancivil,

Thanks for your detailed explanation. As much as I appreciate your inputs, I'd like to understand it without pretending that I understand. Do you mind if I ask you to check if I corrrectly understand your thoery?

It's been touched on but in a rather sophisticated way already, but here is perhaps a more basic look: The diminished seventh chord is uber-flexible and is a typical device for modulation. Say key of C minor (typical harmonic context w. raised seventh), vii°7 is, enharmonically B°7, D°7, F°7 & Ab°7.

This part basically means that there are 4 Octatonic chords (Bo, Do, Fo & Abo) within C Harmonic Minor Scale and same goes for the other Harmonic Minor Scales. Correct?

So in Common Practice Period terms, here are 4 vii°7s; or as you have noticed to make a full dom. 7th: G7b9, Bb7b9 etc.

This part I have a small difficulty understanding with. In C Harmonic Minor Scale, yes the chord with its root G is G7b9, but where does Bb7b9 come from? Bb7b9 meaning, minor 7th is added to the C Harmonic Minor Scale and forms the Bb7b9?

So from this basis, your diminished scale comports as such per the dominant type harmony. Typical use on G7: G, Ab, Bb, B, C#, D, E, F. Gives b9, #9, #11 (or b5), 13.

Yes G Diminished Scale generates G7b9, G7#9 and G7b5.

Additionally, note that the symmetry of Dim. 7th, all minor thirds is reflected in the scale, the same quality of symmetry (and redundancy in transposition).

Yes.

This happens to agree with flat five substitution principle: that scale on Db7b5 does the same thing. Its meaning is the same with Bb7b5, C# or Db7b5, E7b5 as well, exactly the same potential as a pivot to a new key as the diminished 7th chord provides. And, the use of this symmetrical scale, as you have noted, is a kind of untethered-seeming thing, I mean the import or meaning of tones is opened up, it doesn't belong to anything necessarily.

I've never heard of flat five substitution (sorry, just lack of my knowledge), but does that mean 7b5 chords substitude dominant 7th chords? Let's say there's a dead simple ii-V progression consists of Dmin7 to G7, and substitute G7 with G7b5. Use G7b5 as a pivot chord and turn it into... sorry! I can't figure it out! Please help..

Also typical is i, minor is the new ii, in order to continue to cycle. Dm7b5, G7, Cm; Cm7b5 F7 Bbm; Bbm7b5, Eb7, Ab...

Those progressions looks like Natural Minor 2-5-1...

[logburner]

If you start from what chords can be formed from a scale notes than Diminished scale gives you a lot of potential but whole tone is really poor in that regard- only augmented chords can be made. But than again augmented chords are always good as passing chords and can help modulate from a chord to another chord in similar way as diminished chord do.

Yeah, I fully agree with you that augumented chords sound nice as passing chords. I love 7+5 in tritone substitution.

[jancivil]

Hi jancivil,

Thanks for your detailed explanation. As much as I appreciate your inputs, I'd like to understand it without pretending that I understand. Do you mind if I ask you to check if I corrrectly understand your thoery?

It's been touched on but in a rather sophisticated way already, but here is perhaps a more basic look: The diminished seventh chord is uber-flexible and is a typical device for modulation. Say key of C minor (typical harmonic context w. raised seventh), vii°7 is, enharmonically B°7, D°7, F°7 & Ab°7.

This part basically means that there are 4 Octatonic chords (Bo, Do, Fo & Abo) within C Harmonic Minor Scale and same goes for the other Harmonic Minor Scales. Correct?

It means that here are four possible dominants, via this symmetrical construct in the harmonic treatment of minor. The idea is that Bº is vii of C; Fº is vii of Gb; Dº is vii of Eb; G#º as vii of A.

So in Common Practice Period terms, here are 4 vii°7s; or as you have noticed to make a full dom. 7th: G7b9, Bb7b9 etc.

This part I have a small difficulty understanding with. In C Harmonic Minor Scale, yes the chord with its root G is G7b9, but where does Bb7b9 come from? Bb7b9 meaning, minor 7th is added to the C Harmonic Minor Scale and forms the Bb7b9?

No, it's that Dº is contained within Bb7b9. The root of the diminished 7th is the third of these full dominant types. It's only to further illustrate the potential for key change: Bº & G7 dominant of C; Dº and Bb7 dominant to Eb etc. I thought you had noticed that the dim7 is a part of that type of chord.

This happens to agree with flat five substitution principle: that scale on Db7b5 does the same thing. Its meaning is the same with Bb7b5, C# or Db7b5, E7b5 as well, exactly the same potential as a pivot to a new key as the diminished 7th chord provides. And, the use of this symmetrical scale, as you have noted, is a kind of untethered-seeming thing, I mean the import or meaning of tones is opened up, it doesn't belong to anything necessarily.

I've never heard of flat five substitution (sorry, just lack of my knowledge), but does that mean 7b5 chords substitude dominant 7th chords? Let's say there's a dead simple ii-V progression consists of Dmin7 to G7, and substitute G7 with G7b5. Use G7b5 as a pivot chord and turn it into... sorry! I can't figure it out! Please help..

The notes of G7b5 and (its flat five substitute) Db7b5 are interchangeable. G B Db F; Db F G B (technically the latter is spelled Abb and Cb but in ET, no matter). The idea of this principle is to obtain a chromaticism using ii-V(-i). So G7 is now dominant to Gb; Db7 is now dominant to C.

Also typical is i, minor is the new ii, in order to continue to cycle. Dm7b5, G7, Cm; Cm7b5 F7 Bbm; Bbm7b5, Eb7, Ab...

Those progressions looks like Natural Minor 2-5-1...

because the basis for the chords lies in C natural minor? Not relevant really. The idea is that the arrival at i, minor is transformed into the function ii for continued modulation, which is a goal, that's the aesthetic of say Bebop. So that with b5 sub principle (in order to be chromatic): Dm7b5, Db7b5, (Cm); Cm7b5, B7b5, Bb...

[jancivil]

Anyway, I'm failing to come to the point. Notice that term 'dominant diminished'. (The one I pointed out gives that 1 3 7 b9 #9 #11 (b5) 13.) You can think of the lines using that as dominant, even with no chords provided. It can do the same thing as the diminished seventh harmony.

[logburner]

It means that here are four possible dominants, via this symmetrical construct in the harmonic treatment of minor. The idea is that Bº is vii of C; Fº is vii of Gb; Dº is vii of Eb; G#º as vii of A.

OK. So in C Harmonic Minor, vii (Bo) would normally resolve to i (Cm) but by inverting the root of vii (octatonic chord), there are 3 other possible tonics to resolve to, which are Eb (for Do), Gb (for Fo), and A (for G#o).

No, it's that Dº is contained within Bb7b9. The root of the diminished 7th is the third of these full dominant types. It's only to further illustrate the potential for key change: Bº & G7 dominant of C; Dº and Bb7 dominant to Eb etc. I thought you had noticed that the dim7 is a part of that type of chord.

I'm really sorry, I still have a trouble understanding this part. That part I don't understand is where Bb7b9 comes from, how it's generated. I suppose you are talking about 7b9 generated from a half-tone / whole-tone version of a Diminished Scale, and Bb7b9 can be found within Do (whole-tone / half-tone Diminished Scale). Let's say there's Do (vii) - Eb (i). By moving from Do to Db7b9 following the Diminished Scale pattern, Db7b9 acts as a new V7 chord and enables a resolution to Gb. Is this a potential key change method that you described above?

The notes of G7b5 and (its flat five substitute) Db7b5 are interchangeable. G B Db F; Db F G B (technically the latter is spelled Abb and Cb but in ET, no matter). The idea of this principle is to obtain a chromaticism using ii-V(-i). So G7 is now dominant to Gb; Db7 is now dominant to C.

G7 is dominant to Gb, because G7b5 shares the same notes as Db7b5 which is 5th above Gb. The same goes for all other 7b5 chords and the notes half-step below. Is that correct?

because the basis for the chords lies in C natural minor? Not relevant really. The idea is that the arrival at i, minor is transformed into the function ii for continued modulation, which is a goal, that's the aesthetic of say Bebop. So that with b5 sub principle (in order to be chromatic): Dm7b5, Db7b5, (Cm); Cm7b5, B7b5, Bb...

How is i of minor transformed into the function of ii..?

[jancivil]

wrote:
I still have a trouble understanding this part. That part I don't understand is where Bb7b9 comes from, how it's generated.

Dº7: D F Ab Cb. Bb7b9: Bb D F Ab Cb. vii of Eb, V7 of Eb, same function. It's only to more fully describe the new dominant. I don't want it to be the red herring.

I suppose you are talking about 7b9 generated from a half-tone / whole-tone version of a Diminished Scale,

That scale and that chord agree. The scale, I noticed it called the dominant diminished scale, works that way along with the dominant harmony. I have to say, I'm not working with 'generating' chords from a scale such as in that software. I think most of the things generated there are not particularly useful as per your question here in terms of the typical jazz usage. It's obvious enough how to derive triads from a scale, but there is no particular need here in context to see every possibility there is. That guy is pushing that product, yet practically no one in the thread needs that crutch.

and Bb7b9 can be found within Do (whole-tone / half-tone Diminished Scale). Let's say there's Do (vii) - Eb (i). By moving from Do to Db7b9 following the Diminished Scale pattern, Db7b9 acts as a new V7 chord and enables a resolution to Gb. Is this a potential key change method that you described above?

The notes of G7b5 and (its flat five substitute) Db7b5 are interchangeable. G B Db F; Db F G B (technically the latter is spelled Abb and Cb but in ET, no matter). The idea of this principle is to obtain a chromaticism using ii-V(-i). So G7 is now dominant to Gb; Db7 is now dominant to C.

G7 is dominant to Gb, because G7b5 shares the same notes as Db7b5 which is 5th above Gb. The same goes for all other 7b5 chords and the notes half-step below. Is that correct?

Yes. Although as to "following the Diminished Scale pattern", not necessarily, all that is is providing two examples of the dominant harmony; then you did b5 substitute to promote a new key, which is a correct understanding. But the chief consideration there is the dominant harmony, which the scale articulates in a certain way, not the other way round, in that this harmony is generated by that scale (it generates a number of things which apply not at all). Now, you can use the scale as that dominant function per se, but you can do other things with it.

because the basis for the chords lies in C natural minor? Not relevant really. The idea is that the arrival at i, minor is transformed into the function ii for continued modulation, which is a goal, that's the aesthetic of say Bebop. So that with b5 sub principle (in order to be chromatic): Dm7b5, Db7b5, (Cm); Cm7b5, B7b5, Bb...

How is i of minor transformed into the function of ii..?

Just by the doing. Cm is i of C minor, Cm is ii of Bb.