This explains a lot about Cakewalk/Sonar

[RockinMillie]

As I recall it was criticized for just release a "X2a" - even though people had long lists of bugs.

It seems CW saved everything for X3 - which was major update in many ways.

I think there are demos/trials now for Sonar, but it took a while and not so long ago.

Well, I was able to download a 30 day demo of X2 before I bought it.
I do agree it was somewhat shoddy the speed in which it was dumped in favour of X3.

However, there was demo available for X2 and as always with any software, it's a case of buy before you have thoroughly trialled it in anger at your own peril.

[Hank the Knife]

I think that's the main entry for buying software; if you don't like it: move on. Or thoroughly put it to the test at first sight.

[trimph1]

I think the problem is that CW was slow putting together a demo out for it. It ends up being more about sales numbers than working product.

[BBFG#]

I really didn't have any problem with X2. Although the company quickly showed how they will implement something and drop almost immediately (starting with 'Content Club' - d'oh!). I will admit though, that I was still hurting from a Cubase debacle that left me completely DAWless for just over a year and was happy to make any decision in getting another one. I'm also one that uses them more as an old fashion tape machine. Meaning, if I didn't get it right that time, I will do it again rather than use all the edits and features which push the testing of the DAW to begin with. So I'm not sure that real applications for testing in the demo period ever came up. Like I said, no problems or bugs, even in X2. It isn't until I start working with others that the features come in for me. Realizing that something I've recorded from someone else may be the best I ever get out of them or in cases where they did something really nice, will probably never be repeated.
It does seem the company 'throws' things out onto the market without any other reason than to make a sale and move on. And move on they do. However, the company itself seems to be stabilizing after the Gibson takeover, albeit with the same hit and miss support side where you don't even know if they will answer a request until they actually do. Or if that answer will be an answer or just a way to dismiss you.
Platinum has been their best improvement to date, but Command Center makes demands for their convenience, not yours (or mine). It is nice to see each update is not turning it into a different machine and making you wonder where they hid 'that function' now though.

I like Sonar, but the last Steinberg sale has me sitting on Cubase and ready to install as soon as the new version is released. Doesn't mean I'll dump Sonar at all. Sonar and Cubase have been on my machines in one form or another since the early 90's.

As far as DAW's go, Sonar can still get the job done. And better than just adequately.

[trimph1]

I think that Sonar Platinum has worked better generally than the X3 even. The only things I seen is my bugbear, insert instrument into MIDI track sometimes will rear up its ugly head and make me PO'ed.

But, yeah, I have had my moments with it.

[lfm]

However, there was demo available for X2 and as always with any software, it's a case of buy before you have thoroughly trialled it in anger at your own peril.

Been there too - got Samp ProX2 on a hunch last summer and it was the most expensive trial I ever ran. Ran a trial first, but was unable to get it registered such that it increased trial over 7 days. Before support replied it was to expire, so I took a chance.

VST3 crashed it, so I could only run projects with VST2 plugins.
Then six month after last patch, not long ago - a patch came out that fixed that.

But as Waves 9.6 came out - ProX2 crashes on scan of VST3 even.

Magix and maintenance...Cakewalk are way ahead of those guys...

[RockinMillie]

Been there too - got Samp ProX2 on a hunch last summer and it was the most expensive trial I ever ran. Ran a trial first, but was unable to get it registered such that it increased trial over 7 days. Before support replied it was to expire, so I took a chance.

VST3 crashed it, so I could only run projects with VST2 plugins.
Then six month after last patch, not long ago - a patch came out that fixed that.

But as Waves 9.6 came out - ProX2 crashes on scan of VST3 even.

Magix and maintenance...Cakewalk are way ahead of those guys...

Yes I agree, I am an ex Samplitude user. It's a real shame, it could be a really good DAW .

I never had any real show-stopping issues with Sonar X2.
Initially I found that as the number of tracks increased in a project, I would get drop out, pops and clicks.
So I took time to RTFM and adjusted the disk I/O buffer size and all was well

However, I couldn't get along with Sonar work-flow wise. It's not really intuitive in my opinion and I found it hard work.
So I moved on to a different DAW, which isn't perfect by any stretch, but workable for me.

[incubus]

Ah, our resident troll is out and about to tell the good people of KVR how they are to blame for everything.

[RockinMillie]

Ah, our resident troll is out and about to tell the good people of KVR how they are to blame for everything.

It didn't take you long to return to your nasty ways did it ?
Personal attacks, insults. Pathetic vendettas.
You've been attacking me ever since my very first post here (my user name was RockinLily then) and you know it.
You've repeatedly accused me of being a troll, of being banned etc.
It's your modus operandi, you have done it with many others.
I don't like double standards, hypocrites and bullies.

For the record, I've never been banned anywhere. As for my previous user account, which Ben deleted at my request, it no longer exists.

The reality is that you have been banned before here as the user 'NotInterested'.
You've now surfaced under yet another user name but purveying the same old tosh as before.

And you know as well as I do, that you pulled the same multiple account stunt over at the Presonus forums (I'm Morticia over there), using the accounts 'hibidy' and 'narvik'.

You are a sad case and a sock puppet

[trimph1]

Why don't the both of you just "foe" each other?

[RockinMillie]

Why don't the both of you just "foe" each other?

Because he just carries on this sort of behaviour with anybody who has the temerity to not agree with his warped perspective, as he did in this very thread with flugel.
You can't blame anyone but oneself if you go and buy software without properly trialling it first and then end up being disappointed with it

Besides it's downright deceitful to carry on the same old agenda, using multiple accounts and I make no apology for calling him out over that. Funny to note that in this thread the user 'Sonarsux' magically popped up to stir things up. Draw your own conclusions.

I've said my bit now and I'm done.
I'm sure hibidy / incubus will make sure he has the last word.
So go ahead and fill yer boots hibidy ...

[NystagmusE]

"Hoover cites the prosumer market as the biggest part of Cakewalk’s current business, which it serves with “professional products that are geared towards non-professionals who want the very best"

I've said before that Sonar is marketed and designed for non-professionals. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure it's a huge market. They just have never admitted until know (to my knowledge). This explains things such as:

1) No interest in updating staff view to actually be useful.
2) Focus on "content" which mainly consists in-house stuff that is usually of little use to anyone who has any modern sample libraries or 3rd party FX. It's fine for a hobbyist who wants everything in one purchase.
3) Tendency to bounce around, discontinuing or never properly developing features that are then dropped.
4) The forum. I don't even know where to start. You either love Sonar or your a troll. The moderators are constantly getting into little spats with each other. Cakewalk basically took some people who use the Sonar forum as their social life and made them moderators. You can even find Craig Anderton calling people trolls and making fun of frustrated newbies.

Nothing wrong with being a hobbyist. It's good now that Cakewalk is forthcoming about their target demographic so professionals can better evaluate their product.

Yes, professional work can be done on the least capable DAW so let's get that out of the way.

Interesting insights. Thanks for posting this.

I used to use Music Creator 3 & 4 which is basically a lesser version of Sonar. And I wondered about it's development also. What you said adds up.

[Otherworldly]

I have used Sonar for many years, more than enough to share an honest and fair opinion. I'm still a member of Cakewalk forums but I have moved on recently to another host (DAW) and I couldn't be happier.

Greg Hendershott founded Cakewalk in 1987, he resigned in 2012, IMHO Cakewalk continued to go down hill due to inattentive management regarding forum issues and long standing customer complaints (product and registrations), and Cakewalk's overall unwise direction of product development. Roland purchase controlling interest (majority of share) 2008. Later, Sonar v X1 was released and oh boy what a disaster, the new Skylight ui and Smart Tools was a slipshod. And Sonar v X2 failed to improve much ... by the end of 2013 Roland sold its shares to Gibson (currently the parent company) for Cakewalk. Now along with X3 versions and monthly subscription plan. I'll get to the key facts about that in a moment.

imho there's no harm in sharing important facts based on long-term experience regarding Cakewalk products and forum. I agree, customers have the right to report (file a complaint) about genuine issues because such reports should lead to fixes rather than yet again more half-baked slapons (poorly implemented, unrefined or neglected features) and dumbarounds (workarounds). Most users are over the age of 45 and are hobbyists.

I have always preferred to see long existing slop get fixed and improved (workflows) rather than neglected. More and more bloat is added every month but this is mostly moot because most users invest in several or more third-party plugins and content that's superior to what Sonar (latest version) has to offer. If the Bakers want to improve products and the forums they need to accept rational honest feedback and constructive criticism, and unfortunately management seems to turn a blind eye to pesky fanbois and bigots who interrupt (flame), sometimes topics get derailed and locked.

I remember a great topic regarding benchmarks, no big deal if Sonar didn't rank as high compared to competitors.... the point is, there's a lot of variables to consider and for example, developers exposing useful information regarding ASIO drivers and round trip latency. Such informative feedback usually leads to improvements. Most leading DAWs have acceptable benchmarks. Later the OP received a private message from Cakewalk staff who told him to stop posting comparatives. The OP left and hasn't been back since.

A customer who upgraded to Sonar x series was understandably frustrated regarding genuine bugs in Sonar, he complained, the fanboy brigade came, bigotry derailed the topic and the OP gets banned. CW sent an absurd accusation (via PM) to another customer. Another customer had his personal conversations (not related to Sonar) posted by others on the forums without consent, Cakewalk turned a blind eye to that, disrespected forum customer privacy. Another guy who is well respected (custom guitar builder, btw, really nice builds) had his topic title changed to a confusing title description by a Forum Host. I have not seen that guitar builder since.

Forum Hosts are moderators selected from Cakewalk's customer base, they can intercept forum reports. ... there's been complaints about reports being ignored. Favoritism and bigotry happens on the forums, and Sonar has moved in a direction that has seen many users leave for another DAW.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SONAR... just a few examples I have seen, or others who have reported complaints about:

Double Notes
I guess some users might be unaware of this issue. Double Notes can happen occasionally and not always due to user error for example, only one source (port) connection assigned, overall correct settings (options) confirmed. This Double Note annoyance has been around for years..... Workaround: Midi Editor, slide/drag note up or down to reveal a duplicate note underneath or open event or notation views to remove double notes. Unfortunately (depending on Sonar version) selecting all notes in Midi view, then drag up or down won't work, it usually only works one note at a time. CAL scripts (undupe) don't work properly anymore, it misses first duplicate pair, you will have to remove duplicates as suggested earlier, having to do this on many tracks is very annoying (time consuming). The Bakers should have fixed this issue long ago (decades ago) or at least add a much clearer, easier detection (i.e. highlight in red) and a one-click remove all.

The Dreaded Envelopes
Newbies may get confused with settings (options), and workflow can at times be a showstopper. To minimize glitches (bugs) and overall complications I prefer to add minimal amount of nodes, though occasionally Sonar will still glitch when a user copy/paste no matter if settings are correct i.e. replace nodes, or unchanged for example, was working fine a moment ago... users can also get double nodes or incorrectly position regardless if snap and copy/paste settings (options) are correct. This issue rears its ugly head occasionally, if it continues? Close Sonar and restart then try again. Though you may also want to clear out redundant files and picture cache.

Tips: Clear redundant files and picture cache about every 4 months, as this may minimize the risk of corrupting a project. I also recommend regular backups; project and midi files, and whilst working, save-as regularly. And if for example, you install a new interface, sometimes Sonar might puke, I suggest reading Cakewalk Sonar document regarding Aud.ini

Metronome Workaround:
1. Insert Stereo Bus, create new bus for audio metronome.

2. Rename new bus to Metronome.

3. Edit - Preferences - Project - Metronome.

4. Select Recording check box, clear the Playback check box.

5. Select Use Audio Metronome.

6. Click output drop-down menu, select bus named Metronome, click OK.

7. Click Metronome bus, output control, select New Aux Track on the pop-up menu.

The above (metronome setup) is Cakewalk's suggestion for X3. Though what I usually do is insert a vsti (with custom preset) and use that as the time piece (metronome), include a count-in of 8 at beginning of project. I prefer to have my own custom template projects files with commonly used plugins including busses and routings to get me rolling right away.

Midi Editor and Smart Tools:
Finicky compared to how it use to work prior to Skylight UI (Sonar x). The joke at the time was, "Sonar Changes Everything"... many users complained about Sonar so-called 'Smart Tools' but yet again fanboys and bigots stepped in to defend their beloved host. Cakewalk has since improved the use of Smart Tools somewhat (not entirely), I still dislike the workflow.

More Disappointment:
Once yearly the forums would be in chaos regarding new releases along with many new bugs introduced, now that chaos is monthly, new bugs appear. Visit Cakewalk Sonar and Problem Reports forums... Note: the Bakers default forum display of topics to just 30 days but that time frame can be expanded: Scroll down to where it says Show all posts, then click on number of days (change to 180 or 365 days), the page should automatically refresh and display more topics/pages.

I'm not claiming that other DAWs don't have issues, that is not the point because no DAW is perfect and its not just about the product. ... Most top leading DAWs (imho Sonar not included) in the hands of well experienced users will do fine and have much less issues. Or users who don't delve into larger more complex projects (boatload of virtual instruments, envelopes and such) may not have many issues. I know because I have worked successfully using various other DAWs that contain several or more virtual instruments plugins and effects per project (typically 64+ tracks), and received great feedback regarding the results (final works, mixed and mastered). I couldn't be happier

[excessional]

Why do I get the feeling that this thread is overrun with sock-puppet accounts and people with huge chips on their shoulders who have just come to this forum to slag off CW as they've been banned for their trolling on the official CW forums?

Massively long posts or dozens and dozens of posts all made by various 'new' KVR posters who haven't contributed at all to the KVR community other than to throw their tuppence into this thread?

OP's original post (I'll ignore his 100 or so in this thread since) mainly points out that Sonar have 'admitted' that the pro-sumer market is key for their DAW.
Well that's bleeding obvious isn't it? There isn't a single DAW apart perhaps from Pro-tools where professional musicians aren't a tiny minority of users. It's no sort of 'admission' at all.

He then goes on to claim that this obvious point (which is actually true for all DAWs apart from Avid's Pro-Tools/Sibelius remember) 'explains':

1) A poor staff view
2) Focus on "content" for 'hobbyists'
3) A failure to follow through on features
4) A forum with overaggressive moderators.

1. You learn music notation whenever you learn a classical instrument. 99% of people who can read music (and therefore might make use of the staff view) aren't making a living through music. They aren't Pros. You might sensibly talk about Sibelius being staff-view focussed and for Pros only but I'd say that Sonar has a more functional staff view than many other DAWs in the same sector - FL or Ableton for example. I think OP is confusing the concepts of 'classical' and 'professional'.
2. Well yes - the key VST content is stuff like Melodyne and AD2. That is top notch content at an almost giveaway price. The new in-house features like Quadcurve EQ, Quick Comping, Vocal Aligner and Drum Replacer are really useful and work well. There is a lot of old legacy stuff left in apparently for backwards compatibility -but really so what? Why complain about say Session Drummer 3 still being in? It's useful for loading up projects from 2 years' ago. For new ones I'll use AD2.
3. Possibly true that development of certain features has been haphazard in the past- but they seem to have a much more coherent medium-term strategy now under Gibson with the monthly updates.
4.Well I can see from OP's conduct, negativity towards the product and massive post-count in this thread how he managed to get banned. I've posted occasionally with a query on the official CW forums and found them to be nothing but helpful.

[jinotsuh]

I have used Sonar for many years, more than enough to share an honest and fair opinion. I'm still a member of Cakewalk forums but I have moved on recently to another host (DAW) and I couldn't be happier.

Greg Hendershott founded Cakewalk in 1987, he resigned in 2012, IMHO Cakewalk continued to go down hill due to inattentive management regarding forum issues and long standing customer complaints (product and registrations), and Cakewalk's overall unwise direction of product development. Roland purchase controlling interest (majority of share) 2008. Later, Sonar v X1 was released and oh boy what a disaster, the new Skylight ui and Smart Tools was a slipshod. And Sonar v X2 failed to improve much ... by the end of 2013 Roland sold its shares to Gibson (currently the parent company) for Cakewalk. Now along with X3 versions and monthly subscription plan. I'll get to the key facts about that in a moment.

imho there's no harm in sharing important facts based on long-term experience regarding Cakewalk products and forum. I agree, customers have the right to report (file a complaint) about genuine issues because such reports should lead to fixes rather than yet again more half-baked slapons (poorly implemented, unrefined or neglected features) and dumbarounds (workarounds). Most users are over the age of 45 and are hobbyists.

I have always preferred to see long existing slop get fixed and improved (workflows) rather than neglected. More and more bloat is added every month but this is mostly moot because most users invest in several or more third-party plugins and content that's superior to what Sonar (latest version) has to offer. If the Bakers want to improve products and the forums they need to accept rational honest feedback and constructive criticism, and unfortunately management seems to turn a blind eye to pesky fanbois and bigots who interrupt (flame), sometimes topics get derailed and locked.

I remember a great topic regarding benchmarks, no big deal if Sonar didn't rank as high compared to competitors.... the point is, there's a lot of variables to consider and for example, developers exposing useful information regarding ASIO drivers and round trip latency. Such informative feedback usually leads to improvements. Most leading DAWs have acceptable benchmarks. Later the OP received a private message from Cakewalk staff who told him to stop posting comparatives. The OP left and hasn't been back since.

A customer who upgraded to Sonar x series was understandably frustrated regarding genuine bugs in Sonar, he complained, the fanboy brigade came, bigotry derailed the topic and the OP gets banned. CW sent an absurd accusation (via PM) to another customer. Another customer had his personal conversations (not related to Sonar) posted by others on the forums without consent, Cakewalk turned a blind eye to that, disrespected forum customer privacy. Another guy who is well respected (custom guitar builder, btw, really nice builds) had his topic title changed to a confusing title description by a Forum Host. I have not seen that guitar builder since.

Forum Hosts are moderators selected from Cakewalk's customer base, they can intercept forum reports. ... there's been complaints about reports being ignored. Favoritism and bigotry happens on the forums, and Sonar has moved in a direction that has seen many users leave for another DAW.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SONAR... just a few examples I have seen, or others who have reported complaints about:

Double Notes
I guess some users might be unaware of this issue. Double Notes can happen occasionally and not always due to user error for example, only one source (port) connection assigned, overall correct settings (options) confirmed. This Double Note annoyance has been around for years..... Workaround: Midi Editor, slide/drag note up or down to reveal a duplicate note underneath or open event or notation views to remove double notes. Unfortunately (depending on Sonar version) selecting all notes in Midi view, then drag up or down won't work, it usually only works one note at a time. CAL scripts (undupe) don't work properly anymore, it misses first duplicate pair, you will have to remove duplicates as suggested earlier, having to do this on many tracks is very annoying (time consuming). The Bakers should have fixed this issue long ago (decades ago) or at least add a much clearer, easier detection (i.e. highlight in red) and a one-click remove all.

The Dreaded Envelopes
Newbies may get confused with settings (options), and workflow can at times be a showstopper. To minimize glitches (bugs) and overall complications I prefer to add minimal amount of nodes, though occasionally Sonar will still glitch when a user copy/paste no matter if settings are correct i.e. replace nodes, or unchanged for example, was working fine a moment ago... users can also get double nodes or incorrectly position regardless if snap and copy/paste settings (options) are correct. This issue rears its ugly head occasionally, if it continues? Close Sonar and restart then try again. Though you may also want to clear out redundant files and picture cache.

Tips: Clear redundant files and picture cache about every 4 months, as this may minimize the risk of corrupting a project. I also recommend regular backups; project and midi files, and whilst working, save-as regularly. And if for example, you install a new interface, sometimes Sonar might puke, I suggest reading Cakewalk Sonar document regarding Aud.ini

Metronome Workaround:
1. Insert Stereo Bus, create new bus for audio metronome.

2. Rename new bus to Metronome.

3. Edit - Preferences - Project - Metronome.

4. Select Recording check box, clear the Playback check box.

5. Select Use Audio Metronome.

6. Click output drop-down menu, select bus named Metronome, click OK.

7. Click Metronome bus, output control, select New Aux Track on the pop-up menu.

The above (metronome setup) is Cakewalk's suggestion for X3. Though what I usually do is insert a vsti (with custom preset) and use that as the time piece (metronome), include a count-in of 8 at beginning of project. I prefer to have my own custom template projects files with commonly used plugins including busses and routings to get me rolling right away.

Midi Editor and Smart Tools:
Finicky compared to how it use to work prior to Skylight UI (Sonar x). The joke at the time was, "Sonar Changes Everything"... many users complained about Sonar so-called 'Smart Tools' but yet again fanboys and bigots stepped in to defend their beloved host. Cakewalk has since improved the use of Smart Tools somewhat (not entirely), I still dislike the workflow.

More Disappointment:
Once yearly the forums would be in chaos regarding new releases along with many new bugs introduced, now that chaos is monthly, new bugs appear. Visit Cakewalk Sonar and Problem Reports forums... Note: the Bakers default forum display of topics to just 30 days but that time frame can be expanded: Scroll down to where it says Show all posts, then click on number of days (change to 180 or 365 days), the page should automatically refresh and display more topics/pages.

I'm not claiming that other DAWs don't have issues, that is not the point because no DAW is perfect and its not just about the product. ... Most top leading DAWs (imho Sonar not included) in the hands of well experienced users will do fine and have much less issues. Or users who don't delve into larger more complex projects (boatload of virtual instruments, envelopes and such) may not have many issues. I know because I have worked successfully using various other DAWs that contain several or more virtual instruments plugins and effects per project (typically 64+ tracks), and received great feedback regarding the results (final works, mixed and mastered). I couldn't be happier

Honest, to the point and factual . . . Well said.

There are a lot of shonkey things that go on over at the Cakewalk forums, one I recall in the last couple of months is where a well known 'host/moderator' made a comment/post, I was about to reply to it, but before I had time he changed the post, the funny thing is that there was no 'Edited' time stamp on the edited post, so it looked like it was an original unedited post, and this was after the change to the allowed editing time before the edited time stamp would be applied, which since then is for all intents and purposes 0, I found that quite strange, and somewhat disconcerting. I have noticed similar a couple of times, and always with regards to those in 'authority'