counter-melody or counterpoint?
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 16 posts since 26 Oct, 2015
I have a question, I've been reading about the counter-melodies but i do not have clear that they are at all, are they the same as the counterpoint?
and the other question is, I selected melodies of EDM that I like and would like to know how it has formed the lower melody, are they counter-melodies?
and the other question is, I selected melodies of EDM that I like and would like to know how it has formed the lower melody, are they counter-melodies?
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- KVRist
- 108 posts since 18 Oct, 2012
Counterpoint as I understand it has a different rhythmic structure to the main melody, so I would actually just call these harmonies rather than counter-anything.
Counterpoint should be rhythmically unrelated to the main melody.
Counterpoint should be rhythmically unrelated to the main melody.
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
Technically, counterpoint may or may not have different rhythmic structures. The term comes from the latin "contrapunctus" which is an abreviation of "punctus contra punctus" which means literally "point against point". Points were the old way of notating the notes (pitches), and are the simpler of the neumes. Earlier polyphony was, indeed, homophonic, so, literally "punctus contra punctus".Keef Baker wrote:Counterpoint as I understand it has a different rhythmic structure to the main melody, so I would actually just call these harmonies rather than counter-anything.
Counterpoint should be rhythmically unrelated to the main melody.
But that was soon abandoned, in favour of more and more complex works, where, indeed, each voice moves more or less independently of the others. Counterpoint was a designation created later to call the stylized, academic study of the polyhonic techniques.
So, technically, counter-melody is counterpoint, indeed. A bass line is always a counter-melody, technically speaking, even when it isn't more than just the bass of the chords being played. But you would enrich substantially your music if you create really melodic bass lines. Take, for exemple the famous theme of Axel F, by Faltemeyer. You have a very marked and easily recognizable melody, but also a very marked and identically easily recognizable bass line (a counter-melody).
To achieve true polyphony (again technically speaking), you can't have ONE melody, since all voices are equally important, therefore, you have in reality, as many melodies as you have voices, all equally important (four voices = four "melodies"). That's why, many times, the voices imitate one another.
Last edited by fmr on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRist
- 108 posts since 18 Oct, 2012
I stand corrected.
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- Banned
- 1780 posts since 26 Aug, 2012
Dont know quite what this means. Bassline always a counter melody?fmr wrote:So, technically, counter-melody is counterpoint, indeed. A bass line is always a counter-melody, technically speaking, even when it isn't more than just the bass of the chords being played.
"...even when it isn't the bass of the chords"?? When is the bass not the bass of the chords? Do you mean tonic? If so, its still doesn't make it counterpoint because that's determined by what its doing.
Counterpoint's more a process of composition, usually where at least 2 melodies are in contrary motion and rhythm. eg..Fugues. The examples you presented dont exactly fit that bill. They are closer to standard choral composition than anything. Every note is played on top of each other, NO contrary motion, NO contrary rhythm.
Are you familiar with Rocky? Well there's a piece of music (not the main one with the horns) of a string quartet (by memory I think its the scene in Rocky II where his wife comes out of the coma and Mickey says "Well what ares we waitin' for", and then it goes into a montage of training scenes) well the music there is counterpoint..ie different melodies playing almost randomly against each other but harmonizing on the key notes. I think it plays at the final credits too. Nice piece of music, probably one of the better 'modern' examples of counterpoint....
Anyway..snapping back to reality ...what you have there would not be considered counterpoint by many. And especially the bass which is playing root notes and not going in any particular direction on its own. In other words, you're just playing chords.
- KVRAF
- 25051 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
He actually said 'even when it isn't more than just the bass...' For that matter I don't know what you mean by 'contrary rhythm'. (Or 'standard choral composition'. Is JS Bach standard, or no.) Don't know about your "usually" in either case; except that species counterpoint should largely use contrary motion. A simple canon (or a round) amounts to counterpoint. The main consideration is independence as lines; a 'classical' definition might like the lines to be more or less concordant.
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- Banned
- 1780 posts since 26 Aug, 2012
Contrary rhythm = melodic lines in different rhythms to each other in the same barjancivil wrote:He actually said 'even when it isn't more than just the bass...' For that matter I don't know what you mean by 'contrary rhythm'. (Or 'standard choral composition'. Is JS Bach standard, or no.)
Contrary motion= notes moving away from each other in the same bar rather than following
Standard choral = Without counterpoint being employed
JS Bach got to do with anything = No
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- KVRist
- 46 posts since 15 Mar, 2012
I suppose the easiest way to describe 'counterpoint' is this:
Countermelody = sets the mood from melancholy to joyful.....
Most simplified example, bass playing different notes from the lead vocal melody, but each individual part works well together as a whole.
Counterrhythm = sets the mood from sparse to busy.....
Most simplified example, kick and hi hats, each independently; different that work well together as a whole.
Hooks are 'the' most important factor for writing a hit song, the above are critical elements that can either enhance or ruin a hook. All my songs begin with hooks, I can hear how the whole song sounds in my mind, and successfully translate all of that into finished audible format (completed song ready for release). Though of course, all of that is easier said then done.
Countermelody = sets the mood from melancholy to joyful.....
Most simplified example, bass playing different notes from the lead vocal melody, but each individual part works well together as a whole.
Counterrhythm = sets the mood from sparse to busy.....
Most simplified example, kick and hi hats, each independently; different that work well together as a whole.
Hooks are 'the' most important factor for writing a hit song, the above are critical elements that can either enhance or ruin a hook. All my songs begin with hooks, I can hear how the whole song sounds in my mind, and successfully translate all of that into finished audible format (completed song ready for release). Though of course, all of that is easier said then done.
People have their own factual opinions, and Internet laws should be respected. This message is in general and therefore, not intended to offend anyone but as a reminder to at least respect others and their rights. Peace
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
Kinh wrote:Contrary rhythm = melodic lines in different rhythms to each other in the same barjancivil wrote:He actually said 'even when it isn't more than just the bass...' For that matter I don't know what you mean by 'contrary rhythm'. (Or 'standard choral composition'. Is JS Bach standard, or no.)
What the hell are you talking about? I think you want to say "poly rhythm", not contrary rhythm.
Try to do that with four voices (four different lines). I'd like to see all four moving away from each other, permanentlyKinh wrote: Contrary motion= notes moving away from each other in the same bar rather than following :
Oh, really? Says who?Kinh wrote: Standard choral = Without counterpoint being employed:
J S Bach writing is basically polyphonic (which is the right word to define musical composition using counterpoint techniques). Counterpoint is a composition technique, which was (and is) studied by those who wanted (want) to write music.Kinh wrote: JS Bach got to do with anything = No
Polyphonic composition is the way of writing music using that technique. Polyphony may have all voices moving using the same rhythm, like in the chorales, or independent rhythms. The fact it usually is the latter doesn't mean it can't be the forth. What you must have is several voices of equal importance (usually four, but you can have six or eight, or just two, like in the Inventions by J S Bach, or three, like in the Sonfonias, by the same composer). But even this definition is somehow fluid, since our ear usually catches better the outer voices (the bass and the soprano).
It's not what you "think", or what you want it to be. These things are what they are, and they are that for centuries. If you don't know what you are talking about, why don't you listen and learn?
Fernando (FMR)
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
This is a joke, right? HINT: This is totally absurd, and has nothing to do with "counterpoint". Let's seer two definitions, taken from the Wikipedia and from the Merriam-Webster:Otherworldly wrote:I suppose the easiest way to describe 'counterpoint' is this:
Countermelody = sets the mood from melancholy to joyful.....
Most simplified example, bass playing different notes from the lead vocal melody, but each individual part works well together as a whole.
Counterrhythm = sets the mood from sparse to busy.....
Most simplified example, kick and hi hats, each independently; different that work well together as a whole.
Wikipedia: "In music, counterpoint is the relationship between voices that are interdependent harmonically (polyphony) yet independent in rhythm and contour. It has been most commonly identified in classical music, strongly developing during the Renaissance and in much of the common practice period, especially in Baroque music. The term originates from the Latin punctus contra punctum meaning "point against point".
Counterpoint most generally involves very different, independent, and harmonious musical lines. In each era, contrapuntally organized music writing has been subject to rules—sometimes strict ones. Chords are the simultaneous soundings of notes; whereas harmonic, "vertical" features are considered secondary and almost incidental when counterpoint is the predominant textural element. Counterpoint focuses on melodic interaction — only secondarily on the harmonies produced by that interaction."
Merriam-Webster:
"1 a : one or more independent melodies added above or below a given melody
b : the combination of two or more independent melodies into a single harmonic texture in which each retains its linear character : polyphony"
Last edited by fmr on Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)
- KVRAF
- 25051 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
"Contrary rhythm" is still a goofy-ass term. So two parts of the rhythm move in opposite directions, what.Kinh wrote:Contrary rhythm = melodic lines in different rhythms to each other in the same barjancivil wrote:He actually said 'even when it isn't more than just the bass...' For that matter I don't know what you mean by 'contrary rhythm'. (Or 'standard choral composition'. Is JS Bach standard, or no.)
Contrary motion= notes moving away from each other in the same bar rather than following
Standard choral = Without counterpoint being employed
JS Bach got to do with anything = No
"Choral" is a very broad term. It only means we are writing for a choir, or chorale, aka a chorus. list of chorale harmonizations by JS Bach
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorale#History
Also see Dunning-Kruger Effect.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Banned
- 1780 posts since 26 Aug, 2012
I dont need to google that, I already learned the 'correct' way. The internet's full of experts who know a lot about nothing so you have to tread carefully. That's my warning to you. If you want to learn anything, learn it from a publication or a course. Most people who do tutorials on youtube dont have any real credentials, just acquire their knowledge by watching other people on youtube who are the same. Just one big cycle of misinformation.jancivil wrote:"Contrary rhythm" is still a goofy-ass term. So two parts of the rhythm move in opposite directions, what.Kinh wrote:Contrary rhythm = melodic lines in different rhythms to each other in the same barjancivil wrote:He actually said 'even when it isn't more than just the bass...' For that matter I don't know what you mean by 'contrary rhythm'. (Or 'standard choral composition'. Is JS Bach standard, or no.)
Contrary motion= notes moving away from each other in the same bar rather than following
Standard choral = Without counterpoint being employed
JS Bach got to do with anything = No
Hey, why doncha google w. these two search terms: JS Bach, choral composition. Also see Dunning-Kruger Effect.
Thats what this world is coming to.
- KVRAF
- 25051 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Learned what the correct way? You asked what JS Bach has to do with anything after saying 'standard' choral composition means 'there is no counterpoint'. Your warning to me? Contrary rhythm, yo. Look up contrary.
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
Kinh wrote: I dont need to google that, I already learned the 'correct' way. The internet's full of experts who know a lot about nothing so you have to tread carefully. That's my warning to you. If you want to learn anything, learn it from a publication or a course. Most people who do tutorials on youtube dont have any real credentials, just acquire their knowledge by watching other people on youtube who are the same. Just one big cycle of misinformation.
Thats what this world is coming to.
This coming from the guy that had to look for a Rocky movie to find an example of polyphonic writing.
You learned the "correct" way, you say? Sorry to tell you that either you were badly taught, or you learned nothing abou counterpoint. Better read your books again.
But I agree with you on one thing: Thats what this world is coming to.
Fernando (FMR)
- KVRAF
- 25051 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Sorry, I should convey what annoyed me rather than be cryptic and snarky.
(first you misquote fmr, arriving at a nonsense meaning which is all yours).
You have a couple of statements; such as 'contrary motion' as if to define 'counterpoint', but it's merely an attribute, a technique. You can do contrary motion in parts and not be writing contrapuntally at all. So "usually where at least 2 melodies are in contrary motion and rhythm." = not really much of a truism. Rhythmically, I suppose with 'contrary rhythm' you want rhythmically differing, but that is no truism, either. Imitative counterpoint is, at least at the beginning the same rhythm at a remove. An invention by JS Bach, maybe there is the one line @16th notes and the other @ 8th notes. There is no opposition, no contradiction. So, the only thing real about 'contrary' rhythm would be to reverse the durations. Still they are both moving forward in time, so I'd want to avoid such a term.
Then, the sarcastic thumbs up after a fair amount of stuff you weren't so careful about was kind of too much. "Dunning-Kruger Effect" occurs where people fail to adequately assess their level of competence — or specifically, their incompetence — at a task and thus consider themselves much more competent than everyone else.
(first you misquote fmr, arriving at a nonsense meaning which is all yours).
You have a couple of statements; such as 'contrary motion' as if to define 'counterpoint', but it's merely an attribute, a technique. You can do contrary motion in parts and not be writing contrapuntally at all. So "usually where at least 2 melodies are in contrary motion and rhythm." = not really much of a truism. Rhythmically, I suppose with 'contrary rhythm' you want rhythmically differing, but that is no truism, either. Imitative counterpoint is, at least at the beginning the same rhythm at a remove. An invention by JS Bach, maybe there is the one line @16th notes and the other @ 8th notes. There is no opposition, no contradiction. So, the only thing real about 'contrary' rhythm would be to reverse the durations. Still they are both moving forward in time, so I'd want to avoid such a term.
Then, the sarcastic thumbs up after a fair amount of stuff you weren't so careful about was kind of too much. "Dunning-Kruger Effect" occurs where people fail to adequately assess their level of competence — or specifically, their incompetence — at a task and thus consider themselves much more competent than everyone else.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.