Best tape emulator?

[Burillo]

this again.. why does it matter.. with uad, waves, slate, toneboosters, all the others actually, you can use in parallel with pdc.. SO, real tape doesn't do that, we know.. Big deal? What is the big deal to use the advances we have with plugin technology to not have the same limitations of the hardware?

why NOT make a version of saturn that has latency like the others and can phase lock in parallel? What's it going to hurt to have the option?

real tape doesn't do that because of latency. it's not a latency issue. that's like saying, "why can't you create an artificial double-tracking plugin that doesn't phase?" - well, because the nature of the process is such that there will be phasing, period. same with tape. sure, you can bypass the modeling of this process and go for "character" of the tape (EQ curve, compression, saturation etc.), as evidently others have done, but then don't complain when someone else comes and does a full model of the process (meaning, a model wherein the resulting sound comes around as a by-product of modeling, as opposed to being purposefully created via waveshaping and such). it's not a "limitation" - it's just a more complete model of the processes involved.

[Elektronisch]

U-He Satin

It is just enough to add it on anything and it will already gonna sound better. Dont know why, but it was the first time i demoed it and the first time i bought it. It just does some magic.

[4damind]

In some blind tests on Gearslutz most people prefer VTM and finding it sounds more 3D. Satin sounds for some users flat and some others thinking it was the original.

What does a less three-dimensional sound actually sound like?

I think people describing here some changes in the stereo image. Some widening effect or something else. Is there such an effect? I don't know. I only know about tape compression/saturation and of course some changes in the frequency balance, wow/flutter etc.

[Cimbasso]

I prefer ReelBus to Satin and Slate.

[JJ_Jettflow]

VTM.

I have owned KMT, Satin and J37. I have also demoed TB ReelBus and for my taste, VTM is my choice. They are all good and have appealing qualities and you are really better off demoing all them and then getting the one that works best for you.

[Robmobius]

Yes, it's the opinion by a lot of users that Satin sounds flat compared to other tape plugins. But in my opinion the idea behind Satin was never to design the best sounding and most accurate tape emulation.

Wrong on both accounts. Satin is not "flat" at all.

Absolutely... They don't sound 'flat' to me either.

[Urs]

You must ask the listeners

No I don't. I'm asking you because you made the argument ("many users...").

But thanks for clearing up that "many users" are just the people who took part in a listening test prepared by someone who possibly hadn't had a clue on how to use Satin. They are listeners, not users.

I'm sure that "most users" who actually *use* Satin come a to a completely different conclusion.

[transmetropolitan]

You must ask the listeners

No I don't. I'm asking you because you made the argument ("many users...").

But thanks for clearing up that "many users" are just the people who took part in a listening test prepared by someone who possibly hadn't had a clue on how to use Satin. They are listeners, not users.

I'm sure that "most users" who actually *use* Satin come a to a completely different conclusion.

ABX tests are flawed and subjective at the best of times.

In the case of tape plugs there are 2 particular problems. First, there is no practical way to precisely match the internal gain staging across plugs (input vs output). When the 'how hard' makes a big difference to the sound, that's a problem.

Secondly, it's a well established phenomenon that in such tests listeners tend towards the more 'hyped' results - in the same way that in blind taste tests people choose Pepsi over Coca Cola because Pepsi is sweeter.

The only way of evaluating that is valid in this context is usage over time. I'm ALWAYS going back to Satin. THAT is the hallmark of quality to aspire to.

[Obsolete236871]

Variety of sound's SlickHDR in combination with TesslaProMKII to add transience (at about 10%?). But the SlickHDR has some crystal clear "drive" emulation. i highly reccomend it.

I'm a huge fan of Variety of Sound plugins, but somehow SlickHDR is the only VOS plugin that never did anything for me. I have a pretty good monitoring setup, but I couldn't hear any effect on the processed sound at all. TesslyProMKII on the other hand is great for tape and console-style saturation, though the gain-staging is a bit ominouse to set up!

[4damind]

You must ask the listeners

No I don't. I'm asking you because you made the argument ("many users...").

But thanks for clearing up that "many users" are just the people who took part in a listening test prepared by someone who possibly hadn't had a clue on how to use Satin. They are listeners, not users.

I'm sure that "most users" who actually *use* Satin come a to a completely different conclusion.

Yes, most/many users meant the people in this listening test on Gearslutz, everything else makes also not so much sense? Do you think I have knowledge about every Satin user
I think there is nothing wrong with this if some users (or many listeners in such a test) don't like Satin. Maybe there are other tests or tests coming in the future with similar or different results. It's only a test and you can make your own and "better" test if you don't like the results.
Why they came to this conclusion is a different story. Maybe they have no idea about the "right" settings, bad ears, bad monitors or they are right and your model is wrong

Anyway... back to topic about the "best tape emulator" and not why Urs cannot understand why people in tests or somewhere else prefer plugins from competitors.

[do_androids_dream]

I'm a huge fan of Variety of Sound plugins, but somehow SlickHDR is the only VOS plugin that never did anything for me.

I think it's by far his best plugin - very unique - but nothing to do with tape of course I've used it in quite a few masters to 'separate' details in dense electronic music.

[Robmobius]

Anyway... back to topic about the "best tape emulator"

Still Satin.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

this again.. why does it matter.. with uad, waves, slate, toneboosters, all the others actually, you can use in parallel with pdc.. SO, real tape doesn't do that, we know.. Big deal? What is the big deal to use the advances we have with plugin technology to not have the same limitations of the hardware?

why NOT make a version of saturn that has latency like the others and can phase lock in parallel? What's it going to hurt to have the option?

real tape doesn't do that because of latency. it's not a latency issue. that's like saying, "why can't you create an artificial double-tracking plugin that doesn't phase?" - well, because the nature of the process is such that there will be phasing, period. same with tape. sure, you can bypass the modeling of this process and go for "character" of the tape (EQ curve, compression, saturation etc.), as evidently others have done, but then don't complain when someone else comes and does a full model of the process (meaning, a model wherein the resulting sound comes around as a by-product of modeling, as opposed to being purposefully created via waveshaping and such). it's not a "limitation" - it's just a more complete model of the processes involved.

Hey mate i really feel I have been misunderstood here. It's a little frustrating because I keep on getting tongue tied every time I want to try just sort it out.

I will try one last time Ok.. That's exactly what I am asking.. But i don't understand why there is any offence over it.

All i have ever done is stated facts. All i said was be aware satin causes phasing issues on parallel channels. I never said it wasn't an accurate tape model. Imagine me in the studio saying the same thing about real tape, "hey let's not do this project to tape because i want to do a lot of parallel processing and don't want any phase issues". OK?

But i think i keep on missing one key ingredient so i will try one last time:

"U-HE's satin is such an accurate tape emulation that it also has the same limitations of phase smearing of real tape, especially noticeable if you attempt to use it in parallel channels.
I decided i prefer products that do not emulate this feature but still sound like the general character of tape, such as UAD ampex and studer, for example. So even if they are technically even a much less accurate emulation, they are more useful for my own mixing needs.I would really love it if U-HE released a second satin dll included in the purchase that worked as the other products do, as I am really heavily into parallel mixing these days. I was only trying to point out this limitation to those into parallel mixing, but if you want the most accurate tape model, satin is it."

OK?

[Urs]

Urs cannot understand why people in tests or somewhere else prefer plugins from competitors.

So, now it's "tests". That's a plural. Please post links to these "tests" then

I stick to it: Most users of Satin think the opposite. "Many users" is not enough to make it an argument, especially not if the source is something as stupid as a possibly biased forum poll.

[Urs]

"U-HE's satin is such an accurate tape emulation that it also has the same limitations of phase smearing of real tape, especially noticeable if you attempt to use it in parallel channels.
I decided i prefer products that do not emulate this feature but still sound like the general character of tape, such as UAD ampex and studer, for example. So even if they are technically even a much less accurate emulation, they are more useful for my own mixing needs.I would really love it if U-HE released a second satin dll included in the purchase that worked as the other products do, as I am really heavily into parallel mixing these days. I was only trying to point out this limitation to those into parallel mixing, but if you want the most accurate tape model, satin is it."

OK?