Cubase 8.5 here any day now...and the day has come

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Compyfox wrote:
zvenx wrote:I did mean 8.5...
rsp
In all seriousness - if C8.0 didn't blow me out of the water so far, why do you think that C8.5 will if it's are "mere update"?

..............
You are probably right. I just thought it would be important to see what is actually there before criticisizing it.

I think what will determine how these updates will please someone is how close to the perfect DAW they consider Cubendo as is.
I am probably 90%...there are some bugs like cleanup that has been broken for years. There are some features like Studio Pro 1's render from midi to audio and back if necessary that I would like to have in Cubendo. I also would like to be able to arrange track order from the mixer window. And also to be able to save a set of groups and or fx's like a track preset so I can important all at once into a project. I would love Nuendo to have a Vocal Align like feature like what Synchro Arts has.
Beyond that I am think I am very happy with Cubendo. I have adapted my workflow to work with Cubendo as is, and so these updates get me closer to my perfect Cubendo, so I am not as disappointed as others may be with these updates.

If you think Cubase is nowhere near where you want it to be, I humbly suggest it may be time to look into another DAW. One more suited to the workflow you want to achieve. You may never be truly satisfied with Cubase.

rsp
sound sculptist

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4damind wrote:Yes, some small improvements.
Ok, the track import feature from other projects is interesting... the new mouse hover controls is a small visual improvement. Some small changes for copying audio/midi from the mediabay to new/existing tracks. Maybe there is other more interesting stuff but I don't see the wish for a quick upgrade this time. There is no stuff where I would say "I must have this".

I had a big hope they improve automation and introducing splines :(

The only thing: Cubase 9 will be a bit cheaper if upgrading from 8.5
Ok if that's it steinberg have lost the plot. Looking at my luck buying the upgrade and the partly non working absolute collection 2 in september, i am sure i will *just* miss the grace period.

That said unless this video is a portion of a bigger one and missing alot, i am not sure if i would care.

I really had a feeling we might finally get flex tracks (elastic audio/phase locked multi track drum quantise, etc) in 8.5.. i reckon uses have been asking for it since before logic 9 got flex time (so i think 8 years??).

Just a simple way right on the main parts in the arrange page, to put transient markers and move things around. Anyway.... maybe in V9.....

i don't mind the automation.. sure it doesn't have spline but it bests logic in ever other way with value typing (logic only has value from 1-127 in the list editor and no value typing of the real value anywhere), more modes, and the big thing for me is it has all those shapes that you can change the snap size of whilst dragging. Instant perfect pattern automation. I can live without splines.

(and trust me they are only good it the daw can handle pdc and automation properly, logic is only getting worse in this regard.. so be thankful for what you have in cubase as it's actually on time ;))

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LawrenceF wrote:So... the daw landscape is Tokyo and Cubase is Godzilla. :hihi:

Or is Nuendo Godzilla and Cubase just a lizard baby?
Do you mean Godzilla Jr or Minilla? :hihi:

LawrenceF wrote:Being more serious... every since I first bought Sequel (long ago) I've been wondering how long it might take for Steiny to slide some of it's better parts over to the big boys, like the really nice smart tool splitting.
Still waiting for the actual "smart" tools.


zvenx wrote:If you think Cubase is nowhere near where you want it to be, I humbly suggest it may be time to look into another DAW. One more suited to the workflow you want to achieve. You may never be truly satisfied with Cubase.
The thing is, I am quite satisfied with Cubase at it's core (else, I wouldn't be staying with it for over 20 years at this point), and I get sh*t down with it. But if it comes to the so called "groundbreaking" tools (especially in the most recent versions), it's a graceful faceplant for Steinberg.

And to cut the wind out of your sales - it takes me way longer to pick up, relearn and then actually "use" a new host as blindly as Cubase. It's quicker to just get adjusted to the issues (tried several hosts at this point: ProTools - was forced to use it several times and I hate it, Reaper - can't get used to it, S1 - still trying to understand it, Logic - if only it was cross platform again, FL Studio - evolved drastically through the years but still not my cup of tea, Live - not my cup of tea, Bitwig/xyz-modular host - as subhost yes but not as main host, etc).

C7 had so much potential(!!!), only to f*ck it up big time. Actually, C7 should have been a recoded (IMO!) like SX was (which was disappointing and nearly unusable for hardware users until late SX2.2 and SX3 btw). Though I still think we will(!) see a recode of the whole thing around Cubase 10 - it is inevitable (the devs called this "Spaghetti Code" issues back in the day, and some representatives already said around the release of C8 in public "in order to fix everything, we need to recode Cubase" - look on GearSlutz, it's now hidden in the archives). But instead of getting a new and from-scratch coded host, we get even more "tacked on" features, a buggy host which get's some improvements, but even more disimprovements with every consecutive upgrade. Only to be "somewhat patched out" in every other further paid upgrade.

Prime example: Mix Console (which is still bugged out for some people). Or like I said, the new C8.5 "Insert Handling", which was like that in C7.0.0 (albeit without the "fixed height"). Only to be changed in C7.0.2 and then the devs refused(!) to go back to the original concept, saying "it's supposed to work like that. Now three paid upgrades later, they finally admitted "we needed to improve this". Once more - facePLANT moment. ASIO Guard? Without the persistence of certain users to state "there is something terribly wrong", we wouldn't have seen v2 with Cubase 8 already, but with Cubase 9. I still hate the fact that it doesn't show numeric values. And I wait for the day, Steinberg announces "Cubase won't work on Windows 7 x64 anymore - not supported" and then blame every found bug on the fact that you're still on Win7.

Theo also brought up a couple of more points. Another friend of mine (who is an even heavier Cubase Audio-Engine user than I am) told me about focus issues that still exist as well (and I'm sure that they will not be patched with C8.5 - Dual Screen usage comes to mind, still buggy!). And the issues still don't cut off.

It's like a collection of recipes. Instead of using a suitable ring-binder or something, or (re)writing down your notes in a more organized form, you just use a stapler and tack on another piece of paper with even more scribbles. Until at some point, you're sitting in front of it and be like "how the f*ck did I ever get sh*t done before?! What is this mess?!"




So instead of forcing the developers to stop this nonsense and put their effort in creating a good, bug free host for once, we blindly invest hundreds of Euro/USD to "support" their doings. Every single year (sometimes even in shorter intervals)! And this viscous cycle can therefore never end. I mean, what are we Cubase users really? Guinea Pigs for NUENDO - that's what we are. Nuendo also got it's fair share of issues with the new Mix Console - but in general, these users were fairly save compared to the Cubase users.

I can also bring up comparisons to "Season Passes" for video games. You buy an unfinished product, which will be half-arsed patched out, and then you have invest another 25-75 bucks to get DLC that should have been in the software in the first place, and only then get a 99% flawless running piece of software. Or my prime example: Capcom with "Marvel vs Capcom" - concent on disc, and you still had to pay 30bucks extra to unlock it.


And do you also know what happened to those that raised their voice that things went down the gutter? They were moderated, kicked (ever noticed the overly "positive feedback" at Steinberg's boards, while at GS it was fairly devastating and highly critical) or plain downright denunciated (speaking form experience here - a couple of users in here know what I'm talking about).

But hey! New Cubase versions, oooooh... shiney new features... And the promo train is clearly aiming on that - using it as best leverage even. Tell the blue from the sky, throw in buzz words, insist that the thrown in freebie is indispensable. Brain shutting down, "Philip J. Fry" moment setting in again. Game over!



Again - I'm not here to tell you what to do. If you're happy with the current course of Cubase/Nuendo/Wavelab and want to keep on supporting them. That's totally fine. Personally, I think different and I can speak from over 20 years of experience with all three Steinberg hosts (to a certain extend, even Sequel and the AI/LE/Elements versions). But pushing others that look a bit deeper into the usual-usual like "you can only comment on it once you're tested it" or "you can't further comment, since you're not using it", or even "I don't have this issue - it's all in your mind"... Is that adjusted/really fair? Should we really go that route?

No host is perfect among the "big 4": Apple Logic, AVID ProTools, Presonus StudioOne and Steinberg Cubase. They all have glaring issues (which goes even so far, that you can't USE a legit bought host - looking at you, AVID and your C/P schemes! But no, "subscription based system" is the future!). But constantly ignoring glaring issues, and insisting that it actually "is flawless"... I sometimes also like to have the same blinder-models as you have. But I know myself - I outgrow them really fast again.



I've said it a couple of hours before in the IKMultimedia Thread:
Maybe I'm just too long in this industry to see things from a different perspective.


But in all honesty, Steinberg could really grab a slice from both Presonus and Apple once in a while. Why?

Logic X - huge price drop, free maintenance updates, fairly stable to boot (compared to Logic Pro 9, at least if I trust a couple of friends of mine). 2,5 years at this point and still no "paid upgrade" announced.

Presonus? They do listen to their customers, S1 v2 released in 2011, then upgraded it for free until v2.6.3 - add-ons were optional payments, released S1 v3 in 2015 (so a live cycle of 4 years!), fixed issues with the VST SDK better than Steinberg. Have no issues sharing assets with third party developers to really get "everything" out of their host (Slate RAVEN Control Device comes to mind).

Again - just focusing on the "Big 4", if we talk "new kids around the block" - we can even throw a ton more into the pool.



So why should we support a host developer that asked for paid upgrades nearly every half year (in the end) and is now on a "subscription based system" (AVID), or a developer team that asks for funding every year but doesn't fix severe issues until (hopefully) the next paid version and/or listens to customer's feature requests (logical ones even, Steinberg)?

It's up to you which route to go. Ultimately, you speak with your wallet. Which you clearly should.

And in my case, I will continue doing this until C9 is announced (which will probably happen end of 2016, maybe sooner). If it's appealing to me again, then I might upgrade. If not... I might continue to sit it out (unless Steinberg says "upgrade now, since we drop upgrade paths in x-days"), or really start to switch to another host. Only time will tell.



Until then, I can still participate discussions and voice my opinion, no?

Food for thought...
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Compyfox wrote:Ultimately, you speak with your wallet.
So, basically, you want to enforce people to do what you're obviously not able to do? Obviously you're not able to "speak with your wallet", because you're still, after years, into your personal vendetta against the company. And now you're even beginning to actively recommend people not to buy Steinberg's product. Tbh, i don't know why you haven't been banned yet for the stuff you're producing on these forums since years. But you obviously know well how far you can go without being banned, so kudos to you, job well done. :tu: But then, i don't think your brainfarts have to remain uncommented, so just consider this post a feedback to your nonsense.

And please don't argue again that negative opinions on Steinberg's products are unwanted, there have been enough negative opinions on this thread, and there's not a problem with a single one of them. Your stuff isn't a negative opinion, it's a butt hurt vendetta, held since years, because Steinberg peed in your coffee, and now you want to make them pay for the rest of your life on the net, because you can't go on living without it. There's really nothing else to it.

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Man, Cubase can really get peeps riled up.

If Cubase reemed me the way you feel Cubase did to you I would be looking elsewhere. Seriously.
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing

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Im starting to prefer Cubase 5 over 7 now. Tried the demo of 8 and didn't like it at all. It seems that Steinberg is taking a step backwards. Perhaps these guys should pay attention to their customers in the same manner that Presonus does.

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ls1xxx wrote:Im starting to prefer Cubase 5 over 7 now. Tried the demo of 8 and didn't like it at all. It seems that Steinberg is taking a step backwards. Perhaps these guys should pay attention to their customers in the same manner that Presonus does.
You should be able to use Cubase 5, should you have the media, with your Cubase 7 license (the license is backwards compatible IIRC).

I am one of the bunch that actually prefers 8 over the older versions (pre 7). It really clicked with me!

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let's sum it up from my most favorite fan.
chk071 wrote:...because you're still, after years, into your personal vendetta against the company. ... Tbh, i don't know why you haven't been banned yet for the stuff you're producing on these forums since years. ... i don't think your brainfarts have to remain uncommented, so just consider this post a feedback to your nonsense.

Your stuff isn't a negative opinion, it's a butt hurt vendetta, held since years, because Steinberg peed in your coffee, and now you want to make them pay for the rest of your life on the net, because you can't go on living without it. ...
Right, sure. Says the person that hasn't touched a recent Cubase version either. Or do you even use Cubase? I seem to remember you don't. So why even bother - I'm confused.

You know what - if you're so right and need to be banned for everything I do/write on KVR (which you obviously claim you area) - use the report function. A hint, it's the bright red button to the top right of my post, has an exclamation mark in it, too. This is why it's there for in the first place.

Else, what you do, is constantly stalking without any further reason than pointing out how wrong in life I am; while ignoring that I actually still use/like Cubase (even with bugs), help others even still (see various Cubase threads - not recently, but still). On top of you(!) constantly insulting me, and additionally also derailing the thread. If something is "personal", then it's this.

Sometimes I feel like you're one of those pro-left wing do-gooders that always have to be "right" and "fight others, just because".


Ist schon traurig, finde ich...





@trimph1:
If the comment was directed at me. My last post, first two paragraphs as answer to zvenx. Read it again, try to understand it. If you don't, try reading it again. I still see potential in CubEndo(!). But the current route of development/handling issues is unacceptable "to me" (see various given examples, not only from me). Thankfully I'm not the only one in the industry thinking like that. If that is being solved in a better manner, I will continue to upgrade/support Steinberg. Else, I'm sitting it out while still using the tool that I get my work done with in the best and fastest way possible. And that happens to be Cubase/Wavelab.

It's like a love/hate relationship with cooking equipment. You love cooking, but you hate (or are massively annoyed by) some of your gear (even if it's great to begin with) and also the cleanup part in the end. There is no real alternative either - you have to cook for yourself in order to survive. So you live with that.
Last edited by Compyfox on Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Compyfox wrote:But in all honesty, Steinberg could really grab a slice from both Presonus and Apple once in a while. Why?
Not idea about Apple (Logic) but Steiny have grabbed more than a few slices from Studio One. I don't say that in a 'stupid daw competition' way, they all copy from each other and Cubase obviously has way more feartures. A couple of quick examples...

- Track Versions (Track Layers)
- Automation Scaler (Automation Transformer)

Even the 8.5 video thing, "drop media anywhere in arrange, with the blue line", is almost identical except S1's doesn't require going all the way over to the track panels. (Cubase may not either, no idea, he might have done that for effect in the video)

Steiny is smart. I think they (like everyone else) rip from everyone. I think, for all these companies really, if somebody somewhere isn't copying some of your original ideas you're doing something wrong.
-
Last edited by LawrenceF on Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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I definitely don't disregard that. The "Track Version" was a great addition to C7.5.


It's just "how" they do it. Like... again the Mix Console... The ALT+click handling of inserts, or the "vertical insert bypass". If the console concept (the look with the tabs to the sides) was clearly copied from ProTools (parallels are too apparent), why not also the fine details? Like: horizontal bypass? Right click on the channel list (Track View) and then clicking "consolidate" in the floating window?

If you include a Metering Tool through the Control Room, why can't you freely configure it to your needs, as it's possible in other hosts? (in case of the EBU R-128 meter - why no reference level? Why no custom color codes?)

In case of the Chord Track (v1) - why no Circle of Fifths (as in Synleor Harmony Improvisator, and later other third party plugins)? And why was this changed to an "arch view" with Chord Track v2?


More than once this feels like "tacked on features", because other developers did this as well, now we (Steinberg) have to catch up to stay competitive. Of course you don't want to obviously copy it (read: blatantly rip it off). But why not go the extra mile and extend that? I mean... Bezier Courves for the automation lanes are an age old FR (since the introduction of "Rubber Band Automation" as they once called it) - it's still not ported.

Which brings me back to the Mix Console Insert Handling again:
Why (honest asked question) was this handling implemented and looked like C8.5 in the very first version of C7.0, then changed in C7.0.2 (IIRC), only to be ultimately changed back(!) with a paid upgrade? I don't get it. I seriously don't. I mean, Logic Pro 10 also uses this "overlay" type of system, and it works/looks great.



And why do third party tools (with add ons like: macros, standalone tools that tightly interact with the host, VST plugins) unlock the full potential of the host, rather than the host developers themselves?


Isn't this frustrating you either?
Or at the very least, annoying you?

If it does, then why nodding silently and shelling out another brown bill every year?
(in Germany, 50EUR it's Brown/Orange-ish)
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Compyfox wrote:Isn't this frustrating you either?
Or at the very least, annoying you?
Me personally? Nope. I got off of the Cubase express at 5.5. Like you say, they all have issues so...

But yeah, I spent so many years using it (from Atari) I still watch it's development out of interest. (and occasionally demo the new shiny)

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So you have a certain history in that area as well, and can take a look at it from different angles. Parallel to that - wasn't it around the time of C5 where S1 came up as real "competition"? I mean, it's no secret (anymore) that S1 was programmed by former Cubase SX developers. So you also experienced the history with both companies first hand.

I guess everyone has to have their own share of experience, then dare to look beyond the border.
As long as that is not happening (the latter, looking beyond the border), nothing will/might change for the better.

YMMV and all. :shrug:
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It was.... for me, just ... timing. Over a 2 year period or so certain things just happened to be true for me timing wise...

- I didn't really need Cubase's deep midi power anymore.
- Fell in love with the unfied UI concept in general from using Reaper.
- The above made Cubase's MDI windowing really annoying (cause and effect).
- Bought Logic thinking "Cubase's power, Unified UI" but ultimately decided not to go Mac being a long time PC guy.
- S1 came along around that same time and by 2.0 or so I'd moved fully over.

I still view Cubase as an exceptional and very powerful daw. By the time they started moving towards some of the other things I prefered (C 6/7) I was already "mentally and pyschologically gone" and I'm not really that prone to jumping around.

Great f'in product though, the subjectivity of UI design preference aside.

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My time machine says that you'll need to be to at least 9.5 to be happy.

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I just want to say to Roland (compyfox) , rather than quoting his huge post.. I have been using Logic as long as you have used Cubase..

You pretty much indicated in your post you would love to use Logic if it had a pc version.

This is classic grass is greener. I am not saying it isn't an amazing compositional DAW but it has critical mixing bugs with timing and PDC.

You talked about Cubase slapping on features to spaghetti code.

Would you believe me if i told you Logic's code base hasn't changed in 15 years? They just keep "tacking on" features and literally "bolted on" a multicore hack. ALL the bugs and limitations of earlier versions are still there, in 2015. Cubase's code is SUPER fresh compared to Logic.

Logic X's new gui doesn't change any of the issues.. it's just a lick of paint. (the environment objects are still in the old colours, it looks so strange against the LPX gui but reminds you what's really under the hood).

granted if apple commissioned emagic to fix the multicore and pdc code, imo it would be the most amazing DAW.. the midi scripting is just awesome, the plugins are fantastic, it has every feature needed right there on the arrange page, i just love it. But i am actually broken and very close to switching because of the timing issues ;)

I will finish with one last thing.. Logic has a massive delay between audio edits. EVERY SINGLE audio edit you do., changing gain, a fade, deletion.. takes 3 full seconds before the change occurs. Imagine you are looping a section and change the loop length even, 3 seconds. You are moving parts around within the loop and deleting others. 3 seconds for each and every single one. Could you really handle that coming from Cubase which has instant response? The only workaround is to stop and start playback (in fact, my macbook space bar died one year into owning it cause i pressed it so much using logic every day.. it was the first thing to go, i mussed have used it 20 thousand times a day or something, was crazy, so i wouldn't have to wait for every edit).

Anyway, my 2c ;)

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