How To Build 9th Chords.

[Carpenter]

I was taught to count all of the white notes on the piano roll for building triads, finding 3rds and then 5ths and then 7ths, but it seems like that counting convention is done away with when it comes to finding the 9th?

For example, if I'm laying out the chords in E maj, getting to that 9th tone for the first chord breaks the "count all the white notes" formula I used to find all the other intervals. If I were going to place the 9th tone on an E major chord, using the counting convention I was taught to find 3rds, 5ths and 7ths, that would put my 9th tone on F. But the correct note is actually F#. How are they getting to F# following the same counting convention that let me find the other intervals?

Why is it F# and not F?

[Aloysius]

E Major = E, F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, D♯,

9th = F♯

[Carpenter]

I see that it is the 9th note in the chord, but why does it not follow the same numbering convention that I used to find all the other intervals. When I use the "count every white note" formula that I used to find my 3rds, 5ths and 7ths, that gives me an F, instead of the correct F#. Is there a better mechanism to finding the correct intervals other than the "count all the white notes" method that I was taught?

[BMoore]

"Count all the white notes" only works in C major, which consists of only white keys.

This is how you "count" in a major scale from the root note:
whole - whole - half - whole - whole - whole - half

So in the C major scale, that would be only the white keys - C(root), D, E, F, G, A, B, C

And E major would be, as Aloysius wrote, following the same whole - whole - half - whole - whole - whole - half:
E(root), F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, D♯

[Bobbotov]

I don't know about this counting white notes to find intervals. The intervals are based on the scale of the key you are in. The 2nd in E Major is F#. The 9th is one octave above the 2nd, the 10th is one octave above the 3rd, the 11th is one octave above the 4th in that key. An F in the E major scale would be a flatted 9th. If you play an E maj 9,11,13 chord it is essentially the same as playing an F# min chord over an E Major chord. The scale of the key determines the intervals.

[Bobbotov]

"Count all the white notes" only works in C major, which consists of only white keys.

What he said.

[Carpenter]

"Count all the white notes" only works in C major, which consists of only white keys.

This is how you "count" in a major scale from the root note:
whole - whole - half - whole - whole - whole - half

So in the C major scale, that would be only the white keys - C(root), D, E, F, G, A, B, C

And E major would be, as Aloysius wrote, following the same whole - whole - half - whole - whole - whole - half:
E(root), F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, D♯

Ok. I remember being taught the whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half pattern, but I don't think I'm counting the right things as wholes and halfs. Aren't the white notes the "whole" ones and the black notes the "half" ones? So, even in C major, I would have to have two black notes, but I know that's wrong. Exactly what are you calling a whole and a half?

[jancivil]

"Count all the white notes" only works in C major, which consists of only white keys.

Ok. I remember being taught the whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half pattern, but I don't think I'm counting the right things as wholes and halfs. Aren't the white notes the "whole" ones and the black notes the "half" ones?

No: The white keys E to F and B to C are in fact half-steps aka semitones. So I hope you see that this white keys reliance is not serving you.

That's the problem, it isn't that the meaning of basic terms go wrong. The real question is what quality of interval do you want? It's a musical decision. What is the idea? IE: Conventionally, making the E7 a 9th from the standpoint of "dominant seventh" - it's V7 in A or A minor - defaults to the 'flat 9' in A minor, F, and to a major 9th (F#) in A major.
There is one more meaningful quality of ninth in musical use,
you raise it one more such as to Fx. Which occurs in minor in certain jazz (perhaps spelled G in a melodic minor type of trip (G-F as #9-b9 per E7) or resembling the Foxy Lady chord.

[Chandlerhimself]

I've never of this count the white keys method. I imagine it's something your teacher told you to simplify something. It's not a general rule to use. I recommend learning all the key signatures and after that finding chords will be much easier. I'd recommend thinking of chord construction as a sheet music instead of a keyboard. It will make chord construction easier.

[Musicologo]

Forget black and whites and count them ALL.
If you count half-steps or semitones it will work for every piano roll you'll ever need.

Major Chord (0,4,7)

C, plus 4 semitones E, 7 semitones G.

Minor Chord (0,3,7)

Dominant 7th (0,4,7,10)

Diminished 7th (0,3,6,9)

So if you want to build 9th chords use

(4, 7, 10, 2 OR 14)

If you want to build 11th chords use (4, 7, 10, 2 or 14, 5 or 17)

And if you want to build 13rh chords use (4,7,10,2 or 14,5 or 17,9 or 21).

C9= C, E, G, Bb, D

This may not explain exactly why you get there, but it's a simply workaround to calculate in a pianoroll the notes you need.

[stillshaded]

Building 9th chords is super easy, don't over complicate it. Just make right chords first, and then just make one more and there you have it

[Kinh]

I was taught to count all of the white notes on the piano roll for building triads, finding 3rds and then 5ths and then 7ths, but it seems like that counting convention is done away with when it comes to finding the 9th?

For example, if I'm laying out the chords in E maj, getting to that 9th tone for the first chord breaks the "count all the white notes" formula I used to find all the other intervals. If I were going to place the 9th tone on an E major chord, using the counting convention I was taught to find 3rds, 5ths and 7ths, that would put my 9th tone on F. But the correct note is actually F#. How are they getting to F# following the same counting convention that let me find the other intervals?

Why is it F# and not F?

Dude there's a much simpler way. The problem with your method is you have to remember every 9th/13th etc, etc note of every chord. this is the formula I use:

Minor 9 = Left hand, play root note then with right hand take the flat 3rd of that root and play it as a Maj 7 chord. That's it!
(eg...Cm9= Root note is C, the flat 3rd of C is Eb so play an Eb maj7 with right hand, your left play C note should give you Cm9.

This way all you need to do is familiarize yourself with key notes of every chord...tonic, b3/3, 5th, 7th, rather than memorize every chord.

Sus9 = Play root, take second note and turn it into minor7 chord with right hand.

Maj9 = Play root, take the 3rd note and turn it into a minor 7 chord with right hand.

Minor9 sus2 = Play root note and Dom7 with left hand then take flat 3rd and turn it into Maj 7 chord with right hand.

You get the idea. Then you can work out a pattern for every chord in the book including the complex chords and remember a 'formula' instead of a chord.

[Cimbasso]

It's not counting the white notes or anything...it's pretty straightforward.

E major has 4 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#.

F doesn't occur naturally in E major, Aloysius already explained it.

[someone called simon]

If you think about it, that white note thing can't possibly have been the whole story. Surely you must accept that an F# chord must exist – and how could you possibly have an F# chord if you were only using white notes? Or a G#? you get my point I'm sure. Those notes aren't white notes at all, therefore your rule would be a bit hopeless.

Counting all the white notes works for only one key signature, the key of C. A slight oversimplification here, but ANY other key is going to involve those black notes, they are there for a reason.

[Cimbasso]

Counting all the white notes works for only one key signature, the key of C.

And A minor.