just a question about hardware/software integration

[chaosWyrM]

i was wondering...why are there not more hardware synths that incorporate a plugin like the virus ti?

it would seem like at this stage of the game...that would be something they would all do (or at least mostly) by now. im assuming that analogue synths just cant work like that, so im not really asking about those (but maybe they can...i dont know).

i apologize if this is a stupid question...i dont use hardware and so dont know anything really about it. thing is...i think id like to...but i just dont like the idea of complicating my workflow.

[chk071]

Pretty sure it's a cost thing. The advantage of the Virus software is that it can run on several models, whilst on other synths, the software would have to be developed for one model, which would drive the price. There is something similar for the Novation Ultranova though, if you want to take a look. Looks pretty nice.

[aciddose]

I have plugins for my own synthesizer designs... it's a simple matter of setting up a GUI and transmitting the proper MIDI NRPN/etc from the plugin.

That though assumes the synthesizer has such functionality to begin with.

Mine uses a simplified frequency detector with audio I/O as well, which allows me to automatically tune the MIDI->CV + analog oscillators.

[chaosWyrM]

Pretty sure it's a cost thing. The advantage of the Virus software is that it can run on several models, whilst on other synths, the software would have to be developed for one model, which would drive the price. There is something similar for the Novation Ultranova though, if you want to take a look. Looks pretty nice.

makes sense. i would think though that the cost of the software would be mitigated by the fact that it had been (mostly) already developed for the hardware...no?

[chk071]

Pretty sure it's a cost thing. The advantage of the Virus software is that it can run on several models, whilst on other synths, the software would have to be developed for one model, which would drive the price. There is something similar for the Novation Ultranova though, if you want to take a look. Looks pretty nice.

makes sense. i would think though that the cost of the software would be mitigated by the fact that it had been (mostly) already developed for the hardware...no?

I guess, if it's like aciddose describes. Still it has to be done and thought out, and looking at my electronic devices, i would guess that that is something which companies want to scrimp and save for in most cases. Maybe another factor is that it makes people wonder why they don't have the DSP in the plugin, and just use it as a VST, so the unique feature of the hardware wouldn't be quite there. Who knows.

[chaosWyrM]

just took a look at the ultranova...thats just an editor, which i think a lot of synths have. it doesnt access any audio at all.

basically im wondering why more synths dont include fully integrated software for use in a daw. so if i wanted to use my hardware synth while producing...i wouldnt have to actually ever touch it if i didnt want to.

that is how the ti works...isnt it?

[chaosWyrM]

Pretty sure it's a cost thing. The advantage of the Virus software is that it can run on several models, whilst on other synths, the software would have to be developed for one model, which would drive the price. There is something similar for the Novation Ultranova though, if you want to take a look. Looks pretty nice.

makes sense. i would think though that the cost of the software would be mitigated by the fact that it had been (mostly) already developed for the hardware...no?

I guess, if it's like aciddose describes. Still it has to be done and thought out, and looking at my electronic devices, i would guess that that is something which companies want to scrimp and save for in most cases. Maybe another factor is that it makes people wonder why they don't have the DSP in the plugin, and just use it as a VST, so the unique feature of the hardware wouldn't be quite there. Who knows.

yeah. i mean it seems like something that they would all want to do...but i guess thats just because i want it that way. i guess its not a feature people really care about, otherwise more would have it.

[db3]

im assuming that analogue synths just cant work like that, so im not really asking about those (but maybe they can...i dont know).

Yep you can get analogue ti... http://eu.elektron.se/overbridge/
I do think we'll see more TI in the future.

[aciddose]

My implementation is actually cost-saving in the opposite direction.

Usually the hardware would need a display and UI (buttons or whatever) to allow the user to modify parameters. My synths have no UI at all, they are only programmable via MIDI and there is no way to read what a parameter is set to.

MIDI makes this difficult because it is uni-directional communication. To allow values to be read out by the software would require a MIDI output to feed parameter data back to the plugin, which doesn't really make sense.

Other protocols like OSC provide better methods to deal with this and are transmitted via bidirectional interfaces like USB or ethernet.

USB controllers are becoming cheaper but are still some distance from the complexity of MIDI. (MIDI = one additional 6/8-pin chip + UART communication common to microcontrollers.)

One notable thing about the virus is that they use a USB interface, which makes the communication much more practical.

You might notice there is a lot of hardware without such a custom protocol over USB, which is quite expensive to implement just in terms of the USB controller but far more in terms of the custom communications. (OSC or otherwise.)

Most hardware does support MIDI but due to the fact bidirectional communication is impractical it makes the whole deal a lot more difficult and unlikely to be worthwhile.

[mikefellh]

Nord Modular, software hasn't been updated for newer operating systems...it's designed for Mac OS 9.x/XP.

Roland Gaia, they've discontinued the software as they don't want to upgrade it anymore...I had the toughest time getting a copy.

That's why!

[recursive one]

just took a look at the ultranova...thats just an editor, which i think a lot of synths have. it doesnt access any audio at all.

basically im wondering why more synths dont include fully integrated software for use in a daw. so if i wanted to use my hardware synth while producing...i wouldnt have to actually ever touch it if i didnt want to.

that is how the ti works...isnt it?

Yes, that's how the TI works. I don't touch my Virus Snow at all except for switching it on and off, I load the plugin into my DAW and it streams both MIDI and audio over USB. The only workflow difference to the native plugins (besides the obvious fact that I can run only one instance of it at a time) is that I have to freeze the Virus plugin to audio before rendering the whole project. Virus plugin can be unfrozen later, thus I can have as much Virus parts in my projects as I want, and edit them at any time I want.

Ultranova has a plugin but it only streams MIDI, you have to route audio back to your DAW. I guess this should mean that you can't freeze/unfreeze it like Virus.

I also wonder why there aren't more hardware synths, especially digital ones, having the same kind of total integration as Virus.

[Stupid American Pig]

I think its just a case of support cost. The world of computer software moves about twice as fast as hardware music equipment and the market isn't large enough to support being in lock step. I just wish I could get Roland to digitally sign the drivers to my UA-1000 so I didn't have to run El Capitan in dev mode to load the unsigned driver which works perfectly fine otherwise. It would literally mean a recompilation with digital signatures in place, but I suppose that would require a whole other QA cycle and other overhead costs to support hardware which presumably nobody uses anymore. I rather like the UA-1000 though so Im not giving it up until I have to, I sold my TR-808 so I could buy it. That was a boneheaded move...

[aimm]

There are some companies like rekon audio or soundtower which sell vst plugins for several syths. But from my experience they often don't work well (at least the soundtower stuff). Don't know if this is really that complicated in terms of programming?!

[Daags]

I don't like these bridge ideas at all .... they're gimmicky IMO.

all they essentially do is abstract the midi/audio process you do anyways ... and perhaps offer some project recall convenience.

but I already bought the best soundcard I can afford, so why would I want to use the soundcard they'd build in to a synth ? how much of the money I've spent on the synth goes to the a/d converters ? what about my other outboard gear ? or is the assumption that I am suckered in by some analogue marketing (in the case of overbridge devices), but the sole analogue device in my setup is this synth that i hook up direct to my laptop by usb ?

I was rolling so many eyes when people started hailing overbridge like it was magic... like literally magic ... 'zomfg analogue in your daw 4 reelz!'

besides the obvious lack of understanding of the technology behind the 'magic', it still appears to be a buggy shitheap anyway.

if I made synths, at any scale, I'd never waste a seconds R&D on this kind of shit ... building in a soundcard, maybe, but treating it as such and not going down this shitty abstract VSTi bs.

imo.
ymmv.
god bless america.

[rod_zero]

Elektron are doing this with overbridge in their analog machines.

And yeah, the main reason hardware doesn't transmit audio over USB is that it would need an uadio driver and it will conflict with your main one, and many have a better interface that what the HW synth offers: who is going to use the interface on the Ultranova or virus when you have an RME?