MIDI vs USB connection for midi controllers

[theEmbark]

I've always just used USB to connect my controllers. It's quick and easy. That being said I recently did a bit of inventory and I have quite a few midi controllers laying around. Specifically there are 5 I want to hook up for various reasons. They all support usd midi and midi is there anything wrong with plugging them in via use to a usb hub? Or would I have enhanced performance using a midi interface to plug them all into my interface instead of directly into my computer?

Thanks,
Kevin

[T-CM11]

In Windows (I don't know about Windows 10) most USB midi controllers are class compliant without their own drivers. And you can't use them in more than one program at once (not multi-client).
If you connect them to a multi-client midi interface via DIN Midi, then you can use them in multiple programs at once.
That's the only difference I can think of.

[thecontrolcentre]

I use both midi and usb to connect my 3 controllers ... the usb stuff all goes in via a powered usb hub. No problems. My outboard gear is connected via midi from my keyboard controller via a midi splitter, although much of it has usb connectivity also. I just don't have enough usb ports on my laptop to connect it all up that way.
I don't think it makes much difference performance-wise. I haven't noticed any latency difference either way in XP or Win8.1

[theEmbark]

In Windows (I don't know about Windows 10) most USB midi controllers are class compliant without their own drivers. And you can't use them in more than one program at once (not multi-client).
If you connect them to a multi-client midi interface via DIN Midi, then you can use them in multiple programs at once.
That's the only difference I can think of.

If I'm understanding you correctly buying something like a motu 128 express would allow me to run multiple controllers at once. Where usb would only allow 1.

I will experiment with this in about an hour and see if it holds true for Mac too.

Thanks,
Kevin

[theEmbark]

Using logics built in internal midi cables I was able to use multiple controllers at once via USB. So does anyone use a midi interface? If so what's the reasoning? Just trying to figure out why this piece of equipment exists. It's always puzzled me lol.

Thanks,
Kevin

[JCJR]

I have never used USB midi, though possibly USB midi could have lower latency and timing slop. Or perhaps not, dunno. USB 2 and above is potentially very fast, but dunno if it would work out blinding fast for the computer quickly noticing played notes on your controller and quickly passing on the info to your programs. Hopefully so.

Am just saying, just because USB is fast enough to pump digital audio and fast enough to save large amounts of data very quick onto external hard disks, does not necessarily mean that a simple dumb midi note played on the controller would near-instantly generate an interupt and immediately deliver that note to music software.

On the other hand old standard serial MIDI is a slow pipe. Depending on how well the MIDI is packed, it takes from 0.67 ms up to 1 ms to transmit each note-on or note-off event. So the very fastest that a single-channel quantized 6 note block chord could be sent would be about 4.3 ms.

The better multi-channel midi interfaces can talk to the computer faster than the slow midi pipe rate, and can shuffle data between its different ports faster than the slow midi rate. So if you might have multiple controllers and synths connected to a good-quality multi-port midi interface, the transfer between each midi device is "speed limited" but the transfer of all the parts in-total works at the faster usb rate.

It still boils down to how quickly the computer OS can deliver received data to the music program, with small amounts of time slop. And how fast the music program can deal with the received data, and how fast and steady is the data transfer from the music program to the hardware midi interface or to the direct usb connected synth.

Whichever way the midi gets in and out of the computer, it would be better if the music program becomes aware of the note or contoller message "near instant" rather than "after a few milliseconds". And it would be better, regardless whether the transfer is near-instant, if there is not very much timing slop from one message to the next. If the timing delay just happens to turn out to be 2 ms, then it would be more desirable if all messages are delayed by 2 ms, rather than some messages received with a delay of 1 ms but other messages received with a delay of 5 ms, or anywhere in-between those limits. Such timing slop can subtly distort the timing of a performance, and it will lead to the timing of every play of the sequence to have "very slightly different note to note timing" though it might be such minor slop that the ear does not recogize the play-to-play variations.

There are also issues of timing delay and slop within each external midi controller and synthesizer. Maybe all modern intruments have zilch delay and no timing slop, dunno. Because many instruments seem to be built "as cheap as possible" nowadays, this would be somehow doubtful.

In the past, about all midi keybords and synths had delay of at least 1 or 2 ms per note (some models much worse), and hardly any of the older instruments were devoid of timing slop, random variations on the delay note-by-note.

Then again, computer music programs also have delay and slop with softsynths, except possibly when rendering to disk.

Some delay isn't so bad. If a synth has a 5 ms delay, that is the timing difference between playing with a speaker in your face, versus playing with the speaker 5 feet away. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't enjoy playing keyboard with the monitor speaker placed 20 or 30 feet away!

The reason I don't use USB-- I have many older synths which don't have USB, and only one newer synth which has USB. The old ones can't use USB, and the new one works good enough with MIDI that I never bothered to try it with USB.

One thing, my studio isn't very big at all, but there are a few 20+ foot midi cables to snake midi between and behind equipment connecting the rack to the computers. Dunno if I would want a big bundle of 20+ foot long USB cables draped around the studio, and buying such long USB cables might get expensive.

[theEmbark]

Thanks for your reply this really clears things up and addresses the concerns I had.

Let's say that I switch to using a MIDI interface is there one out there that's better to go after? I am considering investing in one. I'm getting more interested in synthesis and have a giant list of gear that I want that doesn't have USB MIDI. Motu makes a few and I know their interfaces are well known it this a safe bet? Or do you recommend otherwise?

Thanks,
Kevin

[ImNotDedYet]

Many people have said that MIDI jitter is actually worse on USB than MIDI DIN, even though USB has much faster transfer speeds than MIDI. It appears that it all comes down to the drivers for the USB with the computer. I've never done scientific tests myself.

But, I've got a number of USB synths going into a USB hub, and then into the computer. I haven't noticed anything noticable from a timing perspective using either MIDI DIN (and I have a number of those as well) or USB through my hub.

[VariKusBrainZ]

In Windows (I don't know about Windows 10) most USB midi controllers are class compliant without their own drivers. And you can't use them in more than one program at once (not multi-client).
If you connect them to a multi-client midi interface via DIN Midi, then you can use them in multiple programs at once.
That's the only difference I can think of.

However, under Win8.1 there can be problems with USB midi when using the built in Windows driver and you may need to turn the device on and off to get it to actually transmit midi, even though it is recognised by the OS and your DAWs

[sin night]

I have two reasons for using a midi interface instead of usb midi even when the device has usb midi:
1 - I can turn on and off the device at any time and the computer won't bother asking for missing midi ports or telling there's a new device (the midi port setup and the daw template remain consistent)
2 - Since midi is optoisolated, I avoid some digital noises I would be getting if I were using usb midi in my setup (this is for synth and fx, it doesn't affect controller-only devices).

I have only 2 things connected through usb even though they have standard midi:
- an Eventide TImeFactor (because it's more straightforward for the editor - and it has no noise issues even with usb)
- a Moog Minitaur (because I need the midi out for the editor... and yes, I had to tape the ground on the usb to avoid noises).

[RichieWitch]

The simplest answer for why these MIDI hubs exist is that until just a few years ago, MIDI via USB wasn't even an option on synthesizers. All of my controllers have USB, none of my synths do.

I have the MOTU MIDI Express XT and it allows me to run my entire studio without turning on my computer. I just plug one of my controllers into the MIDI connector on the front panel of the MOTU and I'm ready to jam.

However, I use the USB connector on the MOTU whenever I want integrate/sync with my DAW. Best of both worlds.

[T-CM11]

In Windows (I don't know about Windows 10) most USB midi controllers are class compliant without their own drivers. And you can't use them in more than one program at once (not multi-client).
If you connect them to a multi-client midi interface via DIN Midi, then you can use them in multiple programs at once.
That's the only difference I can think of.

If I'm understanding you correctly buying something like a motu 128 express would allow me to run multiple controllers at once. Where usb would only allow 1.

I will experiment with this in about an hour and see if it holds true for Mac too.

Thanks,
Kevin

You can always run multiple controllers at once.
No, I said using controllers in multiple programs at once. And I don't think it's a problem in OSX...

[T-CM11]

Using logics built in internal midi cables I was able to use multiple controllers at once via USB. So does anyone use a midi interface? If so what's the reasoning? Just trying to figure out why this piece of equipment exists. It's always puzzled me lol.

In which port do you plug in the following connector?

There's your answer.

[T-CM11]

Thanks for your reply this really clears things up and addresses the concerns I had.

Let's say that I switch to using a MIDI interface is there one out there that's better to go after? I am considering investing in one. I'm getting more interested in synthesis and have a giant list of gear that I want that doesn't have USB MIDI. Motu makes a few and I know their interfaces are well known it this a safe bet? Or do you recommend otherwise?

Thanks,
Kevin

I'd get one of these:
http://www.esi-audio.com/products/m8uxl/
If you can find one.

[theEmbark]

Thanks guys,

I know the motus are pretty easy to come by but how about the esi? Not seeing one on eBay or reverb is it worth waiting to find one?

Thanks,
Kevin

Edit: here's one new http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/m8u- ... aQodZ1oJEA
Is it worth paying 279 when I can get a used motu for about 100?

Edit again: here's an interesting related post http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=373069

Edit again.., : this just seems like a great deal http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/131724841044 might pull the trigger and take the gamble for $80. I really do like that it is the best of both worlds were looks like the esi is not.