Do All of Today's MIDI Controllers Suck For Controlling VA's?
-
- KVRAF
- 35410 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
I guess that's why this guy builds all those funky soft synth controllers: http://www.synth-project.de/index.html Damn expensive hobby though, and of course you have to like what you're doing.
-
thecontrolcentre thecontrolcentre https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=76240
- KVRAF
- 35163 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny
You want lots of knobs, midi and usb ...?
BCR2000 goes for around £100 ...
BCR2000 goes for around £100 ...
-
Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 11511 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
If I had the know how and skill, that is exactly what I'd do, cost be damned!chk071 wrote:I guess that's why this guy builds all those funky soft synth controllers: http://www.synth-project.de/index.html Damn expensive hobby though, and of course you have to like what you're doing.
- KVRAF
- 4590 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
Actually I don't think I'd need 16 knobs and 8 faders, since I can grab only two at once If you really need hands-on control, get fully analog synth.
For virtual synths I spend most of time adjusting modulation matrix and other digital stuff by hand, so knobs are of little use here.
For virtual synths I spend most of time adjusting modulation matrix and other digital stuff by hand, so knobs are of little use here.
Blog ------------- YouTube channel
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
- KVRAF
- 25397 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
Laid out like a synth... but what synth?Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:I agree, but I think the problem can be dramatically improved upon. I view the biggest problems with creating patches on the current crop of keyboard controllers as...pdxindy wrote:Midi controllers suck for controlling softsynths in a sound design sense... unless it is a very simple synth or you are just tweaking a few performance controls...
I've tried lots of stuff and the mouse and computer screen is still vastly superior for sound design...
1. Most don't have enough controls for sound design (patch creation) in the first place
2. No MIDI controller is laid out like a synthesizer (i.e. not inspiring to use)
3. Programming most MIDI controllers is about compromises
4. Most MIDI controllers also try to be DAW controllers (pads for Abelton, transport controls, knobs above faders for pan)
5. Most are meant for live controlling a few parameters on a per-synth or per-patch basis versus being about patch editing/creation
I think all of that could be fixed with a 40+ parameter keyboard controller laid out like a synth. It'd never work 100% of the time obviously, but you could really make something that's fun to use.
My most used softsynths are so diverse... but even the most basic thing such as osc waveform, some have 2-3 to choose from, some have 20... some can blend between waveforms and some are discrete steps. Some you can draw your own waveforms and others import them.
Seems really hard to not get lots of menus or generic controls which then are really hard to remember.
-
Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 11053 posts since 12 May, 2008
This kind of thing comes up fairly often and the only solution to full physical control of synths in midi controllers comes from either the Novation SL series or the Nektar Panorama. But with either of these you also need synths that have every single control (including menu items and buttons) automatable (ie. visible to the host application). And of course some synths are much better laid out. Some complex synths, especially anything modular with infinite devices and routing, just doesn't work with a midi controller and is best to use a good old mouse or a touch screen.
I've recently gone mobile with light gear and a touch screen hybrid, so I don't have a bunch of gear but if I do have a big set up again I would go for the Nektar Panorama over the SL. The thing that always bugged me about the SL range was that you have to page up and down to different parameter pages one at a time. This is a total workflow killer. You need a method to jump directly to a given page. Nektar allows this and allows the pages to be named. This is key to quit navigation and means that 16 knobs, 8 faders and 8 buttons should be enough. It boggles my mind that a company like NI, who did so well with maschine, released a keyboard designed to control plug-ins with only 8 knobs, ZERO buttons, and also does not allow direct navigation to a page. Are you seriously supposed to hit page over 23 times to get to the 24th page of your plug-in mapping? And yeah you need that many pages when there's only 8 controls. So my money would go to Nektar.
Anyways, there are many synths out there that allow full control of every parameter (or every one you'd need for sound design), like the GForce synths, some of the RP synths like predator, the older Tone2 synths, the non-Zebra u-he synths (Zebra is too modular, however the other ones like bazille and ACE even allow automation of the cables so you can turn a knob to change the cable routing), Waldorf synths, Poly-Ana, Sylenth1, Spire (though a lot of controls!), plenty of freebies like OBXD, Dexed, and plenty of little synths like phoscyon and Axon etc. And lots more I'm sure I haven't tried. Arturia has even smartened up lately with the Matrix-12 which is fully automatable. And if you use the Nektar, you could even get great mappings our of Reaktor and Kontakt since the Nektar allows PRESET specific mapping as opposed to the Novation which is plug-in specific.
So yeah people that say you can't get a good hardware experience with plug-ins and a midi controller are full of it. Yes you can, but not with all VSTs of course. You need the type of VST that is designed like hardware and the right midi controller. The ones mentioned above give a very similar experience to using a hardware synth if you lay out the mapping sensibly with a control that shows the parameter names on some kind of screen.
I've recently gone mobile with light gear and a touch screen hybrid, so I don't have a bunch of gear but if I do have a big set up again I would go for the Nektar Panorama over the SL. The thing that always bugged me about the SL range was that you have to page up and down to different parameter pages one at a time. This is a total workflow killer. You need a method to jump directly to a given page. Nektar allows this and allows the pages to be named. This is key to quit navigation and means that 16 knobs, 8 faders and 8 buttons should be enough. It boggles my mind that a company like NI, who did so well with maschine, released a keyboard designed to control plug-ins with only 8 knobs, ZERO buttons, and also does not allow direct navigation to a page. Are you seriously supposed to hit page over 23 times to get to the 24th page of your plug-in mapping? And yeah you need that many pages when there's only 8 controls. So my money would go to Nektar.
Anyways, there are many synths out there that allow full control of every parameter (or every one you'd need for sound design), like the GForce synths, some of the RP synths like predator, the older Tone2 synths, the non-Zebra u-he synths (Zebra is too modular, however the other ones like bazille and ACE even allow automation of the cables so you can turn a knob to change the cable routing), Waldorf synths, Poly-Ana, Sylenth1, Spire (though a lot of controls!), plenty of freebies like OBXD, Dexed, and plenty of little synths like phoscyon and Axon etc. And lots more I'm sure I haven't tried. Arturia has even smartened up lately with the Matrix-12 which is fully automatable. And if you use the Nektar, you could even get great mappings our of Reaktor and Kontakt since the Nektar allows PRESET specific mapping as opposed to the Novation which is plug-in specific.
So yeah people that say you can't get a good hardware experience with plug-ins and a midi controller are full of it. Yes you can, but not with all VSTs of course. You need the type of VST that is designed like hardware and the right midi controller. The ones mentioned above give a very similar experience to using a hardware synth if you lay out the mapping sensibly with a control that shows the parameter names on some kind of screen.
- KVRAF
- 25397 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
At some point I may get a Panorama to use with Bitwig. I agree with you that it is the best thing currently out there. It can be very good as a performance controller... but for sound design? no way...Echoes in the Attic wrote: Anyways, there are many synths out there that allow full control of every parameter (or every one you'd need for sound design), like the GForce synths, some of the RP synths like predator, the older Tone2 synths, the non-Zebra u-he synths (Zebra is too modular, however the other ones like bazille and ACE even allow automation of the cables so you can turn a knob to change the cable routing), Waldorf synths, Poly-Ana, Sylenth1, Spire (though a lot of controls!), plenty of freebies like OBXD, Dexed, and plenty of little synths like phoscyon and Axon etc. And lots more I'm sure I haven't tried. Arturia has even smartened up lately with the Matrix-12 which is fully automatable. And if you use the Nektar, you could even get great mappings our of Reaktor and Kontakt since the Nektar allows PRESET specific mapping as opposed to the Novation which is plug-in specific.
So yeah people that say you can't get a good hardware experience with plug-ins and a midi controller are full of it. Yes you can, but not with all VSTs of course. You need the type of VST that is designed like hardware and the right midi controller. The ones mentioned above give a very similar experience to using a hardware synth if you lay out the mapping sensibly with a control that shows the parameter names on some kind of screen.
I can do sound design in Bazille far faster with my mouse. With my screen and mouse, there is no need to remember pages and what parameters are on which page. The mouse is like a magnitude faster and requires no memorization.
My iPad Pro and Pencil can function as a graphics tablet. So I can display the Bazille GUI and edit. It's not multi-touch but the Pencil may be accurate enough to be fluid and precise. I haven't tried it yet to see how it works.
-
Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 11511 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
A generic one. Oscs in the top left, ADSR's on the right, filters in the top middle...VA's tend to follow a basic layout. A MIDI controller could be designed to follow this generic layout.pdxindy wrote:Laid out like a synth... but what synth?
Anyway, I posted my personal wishlist on page 1 but I'll add it here too. I think this covers a LOT of the basics for a 3 osc VA. If a VA isn't 3 oscs, that's a whole extra set of knobs available for mapping to other parameters.
Obviously, these would just be "recommended" mappings, but even if you were using another synth that wasn't a VA, having 40+ parameters to control would still certainly be better than any existing controller on the market.
Let's say a company were targetting a price of $1,000 USD street...I'd be all in.Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:I'm imagining:
Keyboard:
61 semi-weighted keys
Pitchbend and Modulation wheels
Oscillator Section (12 knobs, 6 buttons):
1 knob each for 1) Osc 1 Waveform, 2) Osc Tuning, 3) Osc Volume now multiply that by 3 oscillators
6 assignable buttons
1 knob each for 1) Osc Mod depth, 2) Env Amount, 3) Pulsewidth
Filter Section (7 knobs)
1 knob each for 1) Filter cutoff, 2) resonance, 3) filter envelope amount, 4) filter mod depth 5) keyboard tracking, 6) FM, 7) HP
LFO Section (4 knobs, 2 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) LFO speed, 2) LFO Depth x2 LFO's
2 buttons
Filter Envelope (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR
Amp Envelop (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR
4 buttons below each fader
Master Section (4 knobs, 4 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) master volume, 2) glide
2 extra knobs (for effects, or other non-standard controls)
4 buttons
Tally that up and you should end up with something like 24 knobs, 14 buttons, and 8 faders (could also do knobs) for 46 total parameters (not including pitch/mod wheels and the keyboard).
- KVRAF
- 3897 posts since 28 Jan, 2011 from MEXICO
If a synth is going to be used as a midi controller get one with as much controls as possible
just add a keybed of your liking.
just add a keybed of your liking.
dedication to flying
-
Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 11511 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
In terms of what I'm looking for, that's pretty darn close. I just wish there was a 49 or 61 key version (there's a 25 key) as I've got limited desk space.rod_zero wrote:If a synth is going to be used as a midi controller get one with as much controls as possible
just add a keybed of your liking.
- KVRAF
- 35276 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Nice one, might try thatrod_zero wrote:If a synth is going to be used as a midi controller get one with as much controls as possible
just add a keybed of your liking.
- KVRAF
- 25397 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
The thing is, there are so many variations...Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:A generic one. Oscs in the top left, ADSR's on the right, filters in the top middle...VA's tend to follow a basic layout. A MIDI controller could be designed to follow this generic layout.pdxindy wrote:Laid out like a synth... but what synth?
Let's say a company were targetting a price of $1,000 USD street...I'd be all in.Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:I'm imagining:
Keyboard:
61 semi-weighted keys
Pitchbend and Modulation wheels
Oscillator Section (12 knobs, 6 buttons):
1 knob each for 1) Osc 1 Waveform, 2) Osc Tuning, 3) Osc Volume now multiply that by 3 oscillators
6 assignable buttons
1 knob each for 1) Osc Mod depth, 2) Env Amount, 3) Pulsewidth
Filter Section (7 knobs)
1 knob each for 1) Filter cutoff, 2) resonance, 3) filter envelope amount, 4) filter mod depth 5) keyboard tracking, 6) FM, 7) HP
LFO Section (4 knobs, 2 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) LFO speed, 2) LFO Depth x2 LFO's
2 buttons
Filter Envelope (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR
Amp Envelop (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR
4 buttons below each fader
Master Section (4 knobs, 4 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) master volume, 2) glide
2 extra knobs (for effects, or other non-standard controls)
4 buttons
Tally that up and you should end up with something like 24 knobs, 14 buttons, and 8 faders (could also do knobs) for 46 total parameters (not including pitch/mod wheels and the keyboard).
plenty of softsynths envelopes are AHDSR's or DADSR's and/or also have slope controls
LFO's frequently have phase and/or delay
Filters can have morph control like the SEM LP<->BP<->HP
Then how do you deal with a mod matrix?
No mention of FX
Plenty of softsynths also have step sequencer/arpeggiators
Maybe that sort of controller would suit you fine with a particular set of softsynths you use. But for many of the most popular synths, it would not work well. Seems like an expensive controller for a very narrow range of softsynths it can be effective with.
Thinking about some of the popular synths around here... Serum, Spire, Dune, Zebra, Hive... what you described would be clunky or simply not possible with all of them.
-
Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 11511 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
Look...I'd take any 49 to 61 key MIDI keyboard controller with 24 to 48 knobs, at least 8 faders, and a nice handful buttons (pitch and mod wheels too) even if it wasn't laid out like a standard subtractive VA. There's nothing like that either though!pdxindy wrote:Thinking about some of the popular synths around here... Serum, Spire, Dune, Zebra, Hive... what you described would be clunky or simply not possible with all of them.
The 25-key Roland Synth1 is the closest. The Synth-1m is close with no keyboard. Next up is the Prophet-08 or Virus Ti. Hence why I feel like modern controllers just aren't doing the job. Everyone could benefit from having more controls and all any of these companies release is more 8 faders/8 knobs/8 pads controllers that just don't cut it IMO.
- KVRAF
- 4590 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
You guys keep forgetting it's actually eurorack version of original synth that comes WITH keyboard.rod_zero wrote:
just add a keybed of your liking.
Blog ------------- YouTube channel
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)