Hardware VA's vs latest and greatest software VA's

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Hi!

I am currently debating if hardware VA's at this point have anything superior to offer in terms of sound quality now that there are so many softsynths VSTI's that offer ZDF filters and trully optimized oscs and architecture.

The HW manufacturers are quite secretive over their recipes but I am in serious doubt if they are using these latest methods since it is so customary to wait until they don't have a choice anymore to move.

Given many HW VA's do sound wonderful from Novation, Korg, Roland, Waldorf, Nord and more.
Their sound is without a doubt very strong.

On the other hand, latest creations from freebies to commercials are also outstanding and seem to offer a bit more. You can (sometimes) hear the difference when pushing to extremes (high notes, ultrafast modulations, filters etc.,.) if you haven't tested it.

Do the HW manufacturers use distinct techniques that are worth so much more (in a mix or when composing) such as Roland's wavetables and their multiple emulations or Korg proprietary DSP?

Is there future for standard digital filter that has a distinctive character of it's own unless you really need that knobby hardware touch?

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I don't think they are using the latest and more CPU intensive algorythms, maybe Roland with their ACB technology which you can try in the plug in versions of their System 1 and the plug outs.

Also Hardware VA seems a little bit stagnant, not offering enough features, except maybe the Virus and the Ultranova. Both sound good but a bit vanilla, not as good as DIVA for analog sounds. And well I get hardware for the interface and the best VA's doesn't have such a good interface.

Stuff like the Blofeld (which I got recently) is powerfull, sounds very good but: the interface is not as good as it could have been; it doesn't have enough DSP to use it to full measssure; you end running only one instance since multimode is buggy and it only has one stereo out. So I am considering getting Largo and if the blofeld can function as a controller I might keep it, if not I will sell it.

Nord lead 4 is such step back from Nl3 that it puts me off, not aftertouch in 2016 is an insult for the price they are asking. It might have better filters than NL3 but the rest is lacking.

Arturia Origin is, IMHO, what a HW VA should be these days, unfotunately it was made by arturia and wasn't not supported enough and I can read in their forum it has multiple issues.

Maybe the Roland JDXA with its hybrid architecture offers something good, but I have not played it.
dedication to flying

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rod_zero wrote: in 2016 is an insult for the price they are asking.
kind of what I was thinking too but didn't want to put it that way :-)

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rod_zero wrote:I don't think they are using the latest and more CPU intensive algorythms, maybe Roland with their ACB technology which you can try in the plug in versions of their System 1 and the plug outs.

Also Hardware VA seems a little bit stagnant, not offering enough features, except maybe the Virus and the Ultranova. Both sound good but a bit vanilla, not as good as DIVA for analog sounds. And well I get hardware for the interface and the best VA's doesn't have such a good interface.

Stuff like the Blofeld (which I got recently) is powerfull, sounds very good but: the interface is not as good as it could have been; it doesn't have enough DSP to use it to full measssure; you end running only one instance since multimode is buggy and it only has one stereo out. So I am considering getting Largo and if the blofeld can function as a controller I might keep it, if not I will sell it.

Nord lead 4 is such step back from Nl3 that it puts me off, not aftertouch in 2016 is an insult for the price they are asking. It might have better filters than NL3 but the rest is lacking.

Arturia Origin is, IMHO, what a HW VA should be these days, unfotunately it was made by arturia and wasn't not supported enough and I can read in their forum it has multiple issues.

Maybe the Roland JDXA with its hybrid architecture offers something good, but I have not played it.
I use Diva and have a Virus TI. I would say the TI sounds at least as good and in many cases better, it has more flexibility and much better fx. Even running Diva at 96K/24 (The TI's native output to my mixer) the TI is just as good (different is the word I would use) but more importantly I can get 128 note poly and 16 mult for 0 CPU....that is what you are paying for (and the control surface, audio IO etc) - You would probably need 3K of computer to get 128 note polly from Diva at 96K (if its even possible)!

Compare apples and apples....obviously software is cheap if you already have a power PC and high quality I/O digital converters etc.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live+PUSH 3 Standalone, Reason, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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I don't quite agree with this generalization, like "hardware VA in general" vs "latest software VA in general". I depends on a specific synth, the sound quality is determined by the manpower put into desigining its engine and the subjective views of its creators concerning what sounds good. IMO it doesn't matter if it runs a regular computer or a dedicated DSP.

Two synths I personally consider to sound the best in my current setup are Spire and Virus TI. Also, juging from some available soundclips, Nord Lead is capable of some extremely sweet tones. On the other hand, I had the opportunity to play with Ultranova and some Roland synths (System-1, GAIA, SH-201) and to my ears the latest VSTi's like Diversion, Monark, Diva sound better.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

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So it seems that some HW VAs do stand out in terms of quality namely the Virus and Nord.

Would it be that high resolution oversampling and DAC's may be just s good as good algos on the VST's?

I did attend a show yesterday which had a NL and honestly it was very irritating to the ears at the high pitched register (might be the patch programming though).

Although I still feel that recent VST's have an edge and would really like to see better VA implementations in HW since the cost is astronomically high at this point for a controller with DSP compared to ITB and true analogs.

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SLiC wrote:You would probably need 3K of computer to get 128 note polly from Diva at 96K (if its even possible)!
You can't, Diva has a max polyphony of 16 voices. Perfectly enough I'd say, and you're also not gaining anything by running Diva at 96k because it oversamples internally to 384k anyways!

That said, Virus has nothing to do in comparison with Diva, it really doesn't. Filters in Diva are on a much higher level and juicier. Also oscillators on Virus are way too dark (probably because of very steep bandlimiting) compared to Diva's... Virus is older tech, let's face it, those filters are using unit delays and it can clearly be heard when you push them too hard. Not saying it sounds bad, just saying it doesn't sound close to analog, which is the main point behind Diva.

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Softsynths overall sound better than hardware and are more diverse and deep.

The advantage for hardware is the hardware interface. It can have dedicated controls that fit the synthesis better than generic midi controllers fit softsynths. The hardware is also nice cause you can just plug it in, turn it on, and play. Fast, no cpu glitches, no digital clipping... it just works in a complete ready to go package. The computer/softsynth user has to be more attentive to cpu use (there is no fixed boundary) and digital clipping. Also, it is possible for someone to use a crap audio interface which will affect how the softsynth sounds and plays.

Softsynths are more diverse partly because they do not have to create a suitable hardware interface. Also, hardware manufacturers are going to be more conservative because it is a much bigger investment. Softsynths can also be updated freely without having to consider whether the updated features fit the existing hardware.

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yul wrote:Hi!
I am currently debating if hardware VA's at this point have anything superior to offer
Call around Montreal, and find who has hardware you can demo,
bring in a laptop with some softsynths, and compare using the same
headphones. While not a perfect test, it removes many variables
prior to a $ubstantial purchase in hardware, and features your ears,
your fingers, using your mode of playing/composing. Then you can
safely overlay the audio math facts presented by experts,
with your own experience, and spend money accurately.

Hardware, or software? Confusedus saith 'Both, and :party: MORE :party: '

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I still remember the day when I got to demo a Virus Ti2 keyboard, and the first thing i did was dial up my own preset without any FX. The second thing i did was say to myself..

"Hmm I can get lots of these same sounds with software"

Here is a demo of the Virus Ti2 Factory Presets.
https://soundcloud.com/spacesheep1/acce ... esets-demo

Actually IMO that for general purpose VA duties Dune2 sounds much better than the VirusTI2.
https://soundcloud.com/aiyn-zahev/dune-2-demo-tracks

Of course I can't get those same kind of sounds without a CPU hit on my DAW system. So there is that with HW, but technology wise I am not really that convinced with modern Virtual analogs in 2016.

However If i was a gigging performer then I could totally see the value in a HW keyboard. Remember not all synthesizer aficionados are technology nerds. Some of them just like to turn the instrument on and play rather than fiddle with software updates etc.

I suppose if i had the budget, I would go all hardware myself. I would probably not use VA's though :hihi:
:borg:

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V0RT3X wrote: Here is a demo of the Virus Ti2 Factory Presets.
https://soundcloud.com/spacesheep1/acce ... esets-demo

Actually IMO that for general purpose VA duties Dune2 sounds much better than the VirusTI2.
https://soundcloud.com/aiyn-zahev/dune-2-demo-tracks
I don't think it's very fair to compare a unprocessed, recorded very silently demo of the raw factory presets (which obviously aren't even exactly good either), to a processed, produced to the max sound demo which should advertise a sound set though. Seriously, this is, like, the worst i ever heard from the Virus. There are tons of sound demos on Youtube and elsewhere which sound 100 times better. The synth has been used on countless records in electronic musc genres, it is and has been the go-to hardware synth for many musicians out there. Frankly, i feel like Dune 2 is overhyped a lot here. It's a decent synth, yes, but, frankly, there are at least 5 soft synths i can think of which have a more pleasant character to my ears. Yes, that surely is subjective, and if Dune 2 sounds better to your ears, then fair enough. But even in the genres i like, i haven't read or heard that it's massively popular either. I feel like some plugins are massively hyped over here, just like the Valhalla stuff, and when i try it, it's not for me, or i think "Meh... wth was that hype about?", and turn to the stuff which is rather popular "out there", if you know what i mean.

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Some better demos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpxEWALJ1yk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhmvoYd0dRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Tgj_vrgY0

If you still think that the soft synth you named sounds much better than that, then so be it... i disagree. Vehemently. :lol: Really love that character. Actually i get goose bumps just listening to those videos with every 2nd sound. Can't say many soft synths managed to do that.

Actually, thinking about it, maybe we should create a discussion about what we consider as "perceived sound quality". Because, if, with sound quality, you mean the detail of filter mimicing, you'd probably be right that the latest generation of soft synth maybe does that better than hardware VA's which have been released almost 10 years ago now. What i rather mean when i say something sounds better, or good, is the sound character. Maybe the filters nowadays with zdf technology do a good job to mimic most details of analog filters, but what is that worth if i dislike the character of the mimiced filter? Or that they, for example, mimic the loss of amplitude when cranking up the resonance, which can be a quite unpleaseant behavior. Or scream like hell, because the signal path is so distorted that you don't get a clean tone out of it. After all, i believe that the overall character is much more important than the level of detail.
Last edited by chk071 on Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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i have Virus TI, and Dune 2. TI sounds considerably better to me. It's pretty amazing. Also, the factory presets are not very good. Overkill with the effects and saturation. Kills the Virus's best trait: its subtlety.

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rod_zero wrote:Arturia Origin is, IMHO, what a HW VA should be these days, unfotunately it was made by arturia and wasn't not supported enough and I can read in their forum it has multiple issues.
Actually, rod_zero, the Origin is interesting: I whole-heartedly agree with your opinion regarding the Origin being what a modern HW VA should be, but, guess what? While the Origin's software/firmware are (probably more correctly: "were") programed and managed by Arturia, the hardware manufacturing was outsourced to another company in France - so - the suspicions are that the primary reasons for issues with the Origin probably have to do more with parts selection choices then anything else - replace the encoders & pots with non-Chinese parts (sorry, China) as one example, and the Origin magically becomes more reliable -

Plus the Origin is actually pretty easy to work on - so if your fairly technically proficient (or have a friend who is) you could probably score one for cheap if you shop around, and build it up to *better* then new condition by replacing some of it's key parts with a grade of part that even exceeds what the mighty Access-Music uses in their TI2 -

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chk071 wrote:
If you still think that the soft synth you named sounds much better than that, then so be it... i disagree. Vehemently. :lol: Really love that character. Actually i get goose bumps just listening to those videos with every 2nd sound. Can't say many soft synths managed to do that.
The Ti is a fine and versatile synth that many people have done cool stuff with... however, the filters do not sound particularly good to me. I would say a number of current softsynths have better filters. And maybe I have just heard the Virus sound too much, but there are a number of synths that just sound more interesting to me.

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