Synclavier Soft synth/emulators?

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nexussynth wrote:Synclavier's FM (not the sampling which is outdated and unnecessary today) is what everybody has been hoping for since softsynths came into use many years ago. sample libraries (both of them!) seem to fall short. the Arturia is fantastic but the presets only have a few of the most memorable sounds. the Audio-Term II is what i want! now that sounds like the old blue demo record than Arturia's.
The Audio-Term could replace the resynthesis part of the Synclavier (in the state we know it), but AFAIK, FM wasn't implemented. Let's see what the author comes with for version II.
Fernando (FMR)

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AudioTerm II has a similar structure to the Synclavier, but there are also some differences:

1. FM in ATII has no audible aliasing. This is achieved by a combination of oversampling and adjusting the fm index depending on modulator / carrier freqs and the harmonic content of the carrier waves.

2. The envelopes allow adjusting the curve shape (similar to what we know from FM7/8) and the modulation of the time segments also works in realtime (on Synclavier V you have to retrigger that segement - dunno what's better, maybe it's best to let the user decide...)

3. The chorus voices can be "started" without retriggering the note. The detuning can also set back to 1.0 without level jumps or static phasing. The engine does a frequency comparison of the oscillators within a timbre and does a smoothed enabling / disabling / level adjustment for the chorus voices.

4. It has 64 harmonic partials and 128 time frames (btw., the later versions of the Synclavier could do up to 128 for resynthesis).

5. The timbre frame sequencing in AT II works more like a true wave sequencer. It calculates the slot volumes individually and then does a crossfade between the scaled signals (adjustable between lin and log). Synclavier V works different here and also lacks the frame loop function.

6. AT II can have random detuning per note and per timbre frame slot. Also it can do fixed frequency fm in the range from 1 - 999 Hz.

7. The LFOs in AT II also have global modes, an extended range (up to 200 Hz) and some more parameters. Further there's a "smoothed random" wave available.

The idea was to add a different "flavor" to the "Synclavier FM idea", but not to make a 1:1 emulation. All in all ATII sounds "smoother" and more "hi -fi", but lacks the agressive / gritty side of the Synclavier V.

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blacktomcat666 wrote:AudioTerm II has a similar structure to the Synclavier, but there are also some differences:

1. FM in ATII has no audible aliasing. This is achieved by a combination of oversampling and adjusting the fm index depending on modulator / carrier freqs and the harmonic content of the carrier waves.

2. The envelopes allow adjusting the curve shape (similar to what we know from FM7/8) and the modulation of the time segments also works in realtime (on Synclavier V you have to retrigger that segement - dunno what's better, maybe it's best to let the user decide...)

3. The chorus voices can be "started" without retriggering the note. The detuning can also set back to 1.0 without level jumps or static phasing. The engine does a frequency comparison of the oscillators within a timbre and does a smoothed enabling / disabling / level adjustment for the chorus voices.

4. It has 64 harmonic partials and 128 time frames (btw., the later versions of the Synclavier could do up to 128 for resynthesis).

5. The timbre frame sequencing in AT II works more like a true wave sequencer. It calculates the slot volumes individually and then does a crossfade between the scaled signals (adjustable between lin and log). Synclavier V works different here and also lacks the frame loop function.

6. AT II can have random detuning per note and per timbre frame slot. Also it can do fixed frequency fm in the range from 1 - 999 Hz.

7. The LFOs in AT II also have global modes, an extended range (up to 200 Hz) and some more parameters. Further there's a "smoothed random" wave available.

The idea was to add a different "flavor" to the "Synclavier FM idea", but not to make a 1:1 emulation. All in all ATII sounds "smoother" and more "hi -fi", but lacks the agressive / gritty side of the Synclavier V.
Your description looks juicy :love: Look forward to try it. :hyper:
Fernando (FMR)

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Still Windows only?

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aMUSEd wrote:Still Windows only?
Yes... I'm really sorry. I've only limited programming knowledge (Windows API, SSE, plain C, little C++). Further I only have some quite old windows machines for development / testing (crappy Pentium D, Athlon II 250). This is why I call the project "a poor man's synclavier" and not "my next product": I'm literally trying to squeeze a maximum result out of almost nothing. :D

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blacktomcat666 wrote:
aMUSEd wrote:Still Windows only?
Yes... I'm really sorry. I've only limited programming knowledge (Windows API, SSE, plain C, little C++). Further I only have some quite old windows machines for development / testing (crappy Pentium D, Athlon II 250). This is why I call the project "a poor man's synclavier" and not "my next product": I'm literally trying to squeeze a maximum result out of almost nothing. :D
After releasing, maybe you could try to find someone that would make a port of the code to Mac OS X. I suggest you make it a paid version, and if sales appear, you may consider try to find someone who would make the port for you. If your description matches the final product, I think AT II has a lot of potential. The current AudioTerm is one of my favourite tools, in spite of its quirks.
Fernando (FMR)

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Just noticed that besides other songs Tony Banks also used the Synclavier II for the Organ sound in "That's All", at least when playing Live at the "Mama Tour" in 1982.
You could check it at around 12:37 at the full video of the tour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgESSnb-7f0

One of the most obvious uses of the Synclavier seems to be the Lead sound in "Mama" that i alraedy mentioned at the previous page, also as the Synclavier is shown in the official music video for taht song (besides the ARP Quadra and a Prophet 10). In the video above taht song startzs directly after "That's All" at around 15:15.

BTW did also others use the Synclavier live like Genesis did or did others mostly use it in the studio?
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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That Mama lead is called 'Strange Voices' and the Synclavier V has it too.

Unfortunately it sounds nothing like on the real Synclavier II...even the preset i made on the CS-80 years ago sounds a lot closer.


Heres some comparison audio, in case youre curious.

First you hear the original Synclavier II preset, then the Synclavier V version of the preset, then the above mentioned CS-80 preset.

click


PS: I made that preset a long time before i had the recording of the original Synclavier II so i didnt know that there is that much portamento and chorus on it. (You cant really hear that on Mama.)

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Chris-S wrote:I will try to re-program the Phased-Gong on FM8 (4 instances needed). ;)
Result:
http://chris-s.bplaced.net/fm8/beat-it-test-fm8.mp3
4 x FM8, FX: Saturation Knob, Bitsonic Custom Reverb, ReaEQ.
Not perfect, but recognizable...

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ENV1 wrote:That Mama lead is called 'Strange Voices' and the Synclavier V has it too.

Unfortunately it sounds nothing like on the real Synclavier II...even the preset i made on the CS-80 years ago sounds a lot closer.


Heres some comparison audio, in case youre curious.

First you hear the original Synclavier II preset, then the Synclavier V version of the preset, then the above mentioned CS-80 preset.

click


PS: I made that preset a long time before i had the recording of the original Synclavier II so i didnt know that there is that much portamento and chorus on it. (You cant really hear that on Mama.)
Thanks for the comparison. The Synclavier V preset indeed sounds quite different to that in Mama.

FWIW a patch in my commercial soundbank for Waldorf Blofeld that i ceated around 2010 some years ago is called "Mama 2010". :)
It based on a Choir/Chorus wavetable and a bit different to the oiginal sound too (was not planned to sound 1:1) that is why i used the "2010" in the name (while somehow it seems to be closer than that Synclavier V preset...).
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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Ingonator wrote:Thanks for the comparison. The Synclavier V preset indeed sounds quite different to that in Mama.
Youre welcome.

And yeah, quite different. <wrong assertion removed>

BTW, if you want to have a go at it yourself, the entire Strange Voices audio clip is here. Maybe it helps with the details.

I would try myself but i couldnt save anyway. (Demo.)
Last edited by ENV1 on Sun May 29, 2016 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Yes i will try to do it in Synclavier V myself. Thanks for the video. :)
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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Looking forward to hearing it.

Should be a good test to see how close the V can get to the real thing.

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Well, I was a Genesis fan going back to Foxtrot but after And Then There Were Three, which was the last album of theirs that I bought, I stopped following the group. They had gone in such a different direction that I didn't recognize them anymore. So ultimately, I never heard this song. It's not bad. The Synclavier sound is pretty cool. I haven't listened to the Arturia version to hear how close it is but I'll take your word that it's not.

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ENV1 wrote:Looking forward to hearing it.

Should be a good test to see how close the V can get to the real thing.
Looks like teh Synclavier preset uses additional Time frames in Partials 1 + 2 that make it sound strange. Removing those and reducung the FM mod amount for Partials 1 + 2 (FM amount at Partial 1 could go down to 0) already gets much closer to the real sound. Even without Fm it seems to be alraedy much closer.
So basically it could be using the first 2 additive harmonics and some Detuning + Voice Chorus (Partial Chorus Fine amount) and Panning added like alraedy partly done in the Preset.
At lleast teh changes just mentioend are a very good staring point to the the proper sound.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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