Hardware vs software synths take infinity : topic initial focus Andromeda A6

[wagtunes]

Sorry Theo, but I don't know what "magic" sounds like. Perhaps someday they'll define it in the dictionary but none of those examples sound "magical" to me. They just sound like nice sounding synths.

I can point out at least a dozen of Virus TI demo clips which sound like pure magic to me and I'm pretty sure most people here will say that they sound nothing that special and plugins can make the same sounds even better. So this magic is not easily measurable.

You may propably remember, I've posted two tracks - onemade with Virus and one made with plugins - and people picked the plugin track as the Virus track because it was better mixed and people thought that if they like the sound more it must be hardware. While I still think the virus the best sounding synth I have it pretty much convinced me that the beauty is in the eye of the beholder and in the mix nobody can really tell.

This Andromeda sounds lovely in the video and I would love to have this synth in my studio but I highly doubt I would be able to make it sound significantly better than Diva in the final mixes.

Exactly. And I have no trouble making any synth sound like crap.

[Lotuzia]

Ok I had the chance to play with one of these today at a collector friend's...

So i am asking in all seriousness... if plugins are as good, why have i NEVER heard ANY plugin that can sound as good? In terms of raw tone and emotion.. playing pads on that thing literally had my entire body in shivers, i almost started crying at one point!

So i am going to present this topic a different way..

.....................

anyway check this superb vid out, put on English captions if you don't understand Japanese. It's one of the best videos out that got me closest to the feeling of my playing today, but again, note, it's not the same as the real thing. However, it was worth every bit of back pain to spend time in front of it today just playing away. Anything we compare it to will be subject to same limitations of you tube, to be fair. Of course if someone here is willing to record a bunch of real audio from the andromeda, i really won't be able to do that for many weeks till i can get out again, then we could do audio file comparisons too.

BTW, i feel exactly the same way about Bowen Solaris, which is 100% digital. I never heard any soft synth that good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49i5zIYSnms

I think it's not only the A6 Theo, it's the guy behind it. And this guy will turn any capable instrument into gold. And that's it.

I remember posting the video of this guy surfing on his OB8 on 'another forum', when another guy had hard times making his own OB8 sound 'interesting/right' (and compared it with a plug in). It wasn't the OB8, it was just the guy behind it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57UgdcrH39I

So, just watch any of the clips of our Japanese friend, and it's probably not only an Andromeda you'll want, but a lot of synths he played. Some guys just make instruments shine.( Then yes, Andromeda is a superb/fine piece of gear. And, imho, I know some plugins who could sound just as fine, if only with a proper reverb added)

[ObsoleteAcc99]

hmm still no sound demos of vst's.. i can't find anything that sounds that good... just a few saying they do with the right reverb, but words don't automatically make it so

Yes he's good but he often plays just presets Laurent and he does make quite a few mistakes.. I can play as well as him for sure (well, i could 15 years back, but now I would have to play a bit more often again)...

[Lotuzia]

just search in his YT video complete list you'll find plug ins too

[Mutant]

Ok first vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8GAZfAikNo
The pad at 1:50 and remember solaris has no reverb on board
Rest of vid boring IMO

Yes, thats a very nice sound, i have a similar patch in Xhip (without reverb too), if you send me the MIDI of what Ujiie-san was playing, i could compare the sounds directly and tweak a bit and send you the FXP.
(i'm too lazy to copy the notes)


[edit]
And i mean down to the notes coming at almost exactly the same time, so i can compare the sounds one in left ear and the other in right ear like in this clip:
https://app.box.com/s/kvbk8aaout7qngqo1u134q3b6zah6opj

[tehlord]

Look, I get it. There is nothing like the feel of sitting in front of an actual piece of hardware and turning knobs and pushing sliders, which is why a lot of the rack mount "button press" synths of the 90s left me stone cold, even though they sounded fine. Sitting in front of a mega modular and turning all those dials is better than any synth experience on this planet to me.

But if I just want to make music, who the frick cares? Just give me something that makes the sounds that I want. Soft synths do that just fine. I didn't need to keep all that hardware that was taking up space. I've now got close to a hundred synths in an area the size of a PC tower. And they're perfectly fine for MY use.

So yes, to each their own and comparisons are indeed pointless.

When I go on holiday I often enjoy the journey as much as the destination. Especially when the journey sounds better, even when other people can't hear it.

[Dasheesh]

As far as the Andromeda example goes, I might try d16 lush 101 or Lush+Dune (It will get close), as far as the Solaris example goes, I would probably try ACE or ace+synthmaster actually. have fun.

[PAK]

This is exactly *why* i gave the option of anyone posting diva (or any synth) examples with ANY effect plugin they want. Or hardware for that matter. Do you truly believe the alesis reverb is better than the 1:1 relab 480 emulation for example, or exponential stuff, which many kvr users have (the latter).?

What's ironic is that a common recommendation, for people going into music stores to demo the A6, was to turn the FX off. A number of people will tell you they don't like the FX much, and they get in the way of the sound.

It's actually interesting how the original reception for the Andromeda has long been forgotten too. Whilst it always had its fans, many did not like what they heard. "It sounds digital" or even "like a plugin" were remarks known to be made more than once

The presets and FX were a factor in that for some. The other main factor was the tuning stability proved to be a bit too good for certain tastes. Its impact wasn't so commonly understood back then, and it was only later that you got your "slop" control on the DSI synths etc, whereas you had to know how to turn it off in the Andromeda's menu. Suddenly, for people with more of a vintage bias, some opinions changed

As a result there was actually some lack of appreciation for the Andromeda's sound during most of its life. It took Alesis a long time to shift stock, even when the price dropped from £1,899 to £1,599 in the UK (always worth a mention, because it was a rare occassion where the price of a non-european synth was lower outside the US!) Much of the time I think Alesis was in financial difficulty, and it wasn't too available in those last years.

They did one last run, where they scrounged parts to build the last few, but apparently a number of those last units had issues. It reminds me of the only thing I'd caution against buying an Andromeda is you're going to be in a world of hurt if it needs repairs. Even 5 or 6 years ago it was extremely difficult to source new voice boards. Repairs of voices typically involved swapping out the entire board at a cost of around $700 if memory serves. Now, your only real fix would be to disable any misbehaving voices. Most vintage synths are likely easier to repair.

As long as you go into it knowing those implications they are great synths, especially when you take time to understand some programming caveats about gain structure etc (there's some online guides with tips if you search). It's true to say the sweet spots are less immediate than some vintage equivalents too, but it's partly because the Andromeda has much more going on

Keep in mind, on this forum you're talking with people who are more inclined towards the plugin side of things. The reality is the market already voted, and there's a reason analogue synths are once again back in production. I think there's a decent chance the Andromeda would fair better today than when it was released, and it still more than stands up to the latest DSI synths etc (I actually like it better.. ). Though, that said, there is a lean towards more immediate and simple structures (Minimoog reissues etc) where the Andromeda is a deeper synth. So.. maybe not

[kmonkey]

This won't help as much but i wanted to chime in with my personal opinion.

I can only reflect OP findings. I don't have A6 but my friend does have two of them. He is sounddesigner. Anyway....i had chance to listen this instrument and okay i am here for what more then decade, i have my personal bias, no agenda whatsoever. Zero emotions regarding company brand and lalalala.

My top of the top synth company is U-he, then Ni and then everyone else. That being said i was blown away by A6. Should i note that best softsynth of all time at this point of time is for me - Bazille.

You can all bullshit me with "it's because it is tactile" or whatever the nonsense you can came up with. I have more then 100 plugins, probably 40% of them are synths. I run them at all rates, i do know how to design pad blabla.

There is simply no plugin (no i can't get this from Diva) which can get you such amazing pads as on A6. I don't have words to describe this i simply decided to stop wasting time trying to make my plugins to sound as good as hardware synth because at this point it is still impossible. Maybe not totally impossible some synth do sound same or even better then similar HW i will admit that. But there is so much under that HW canvas that it is impossible to say that sw sound as good as hw.

As i see it now after so many time people which claim soft synths sound same as hardware synths simply never tried one. There is no other explanation for this phenomenon..

Here i am playing with my integra 7 which is all in out software yet for some reason these outdated roms sound more lively then on my computer. Especially when transposing. Kontakt does not give me same results not even at 96khz with best possible quality.

Someone said that once upon a time he created two tracks and one had Virus other had plugin. People picked plugin. Ohhh weeee what this does tell me. That you provided better result with the plugin. If you think that plugin is better then Virus because of this particular track where you even intentionally mixed virus badly - well no shit Sherlock...amazingly absurd test and time wasted. With Reaktor i can create my trash can to sound better then some of my hardware if that is my intention.

I am actually glad OP stepped up with this because we all know he is persistent and he have ton of plugins, he know how to do proper test so you can not shut him up.

[kmonkey]

As far as the Andromeda example goes, I might try d16 lush 101 or Lush+Dune (It will get close), as far as the Solaris example goes, I would probably try ACE or ace+synthmaster actually. have fun.

Dude when i started doing music i asked ton of people to help me (even at this forum). All i ever got was generic answers like your is. You should try this to achieve this or you should buy waves to get that mix. Start with this, start with that. And sadly i did. Nothing ever provided not even close approximation.

Note that i am not trying to disrespect your helpful answer i just tried to point out that things like this lead nowhere.

It is simple. No SW synth sound like Andromeda. Yet.

[Dasheesh]

Then go buy an andromeda and have fun.

[toine6]

Just another great hardware synth. You could still use free vst's and make music just as good though not exactly the same.

Your being brought to tears probably had a lot to do with expectation bias, and I'd imagine the beautifully crafted presets you were trying. Not to mention that it's just exciting to look at the thing and have all those knobs to turn with dazzling lights doing fireworks. Start making your own presets from scratch and see if you have the same experience. I've heard some nice youtube demo's of the synth, same as I've heard nice demo's of 10 year old vst's. I was underwhelmed when I tried tried the Andromeda, same as I am with about every analog synth, but it's nice. I do like analog synths, and own many, but when it gets right down to it, they don't make THAT much of difference. In fact if you run just about any decent vst out to an analog filter, there's not a whole lot of magic left to be had. Yes, I have VCO's synths, DCO's synths, vintage synths, modern synths, analog effects, filters, old & vintage tube gear, tape etc............................

I find your continual pursuit to find the holy grail of synths to get kind of old, to be honest. I say that as someone who's tried 1,000's of vst's, and owns way too much equipment to the point of it overtaking my house. From one gear whore to another, forget the gear and just make music, it's not about the equipment. I think good presets are what's the most exciting part of a synth, not the basic sound. Even bad synths can be used to sound musical, if you're creative. Anyway, do whatever you want, I've got no beef with you, but I've read enough of your threads over the years and they are all kind of the same. I like trying new gear, because it's fun and interesting, but I'm honest with myself in acknowledging it's not helping me make better music.

[kmonkey]

Then go buy an andromeda and have fun.

Thanks. As much as this seems simple i don't have financial resources for that. Anyway i have other things on my list. Such as SSL Sigma, Kurzweil K5000R etc.etc.etc.

Oh well...

Secretly i am under impression and hope that one day company such as U-he is will manage to do it properly because to my sensibilities only U-he synths are on that route.


Happy music making.

[kmonkey]

you could still use free vst's and make music just as good though not exactly the same.

That's true paradox above.

You can not make free synth to sound as lovely as paid one. There is even greater difference between paid one and truly amazing hardware synth. Tell me free synth which can sound as Bazille? Give me one? What do you know what i am trying to achieve?

Yes i can make music with free synths but what kind of music exactly? If you will now claim that Kraftwerk would sound the same with free synths i'll just say Tuna-fish to that.

[recursive one]

Tell me free synth which can sound as Bazille?

Bazille CM?