KVR Audio

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:29 pm

A piano recording session may be cheaper than a library, of course you only use it once but you have the real deal.

Whatever suits your Music best.

logburner · Post by **logburner** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:48 pm

oscarolarte wrote:Bluether+D4 + Solid EQ (native instruments) and EastWest Spaces Reverb MASTERED WITH ISOTOPE OZONE

Tell me what do you think.

Although the tone isn't exactly what I would love to use for my production, it sounds a lot more convincing/realistic than the 1st attempt to my ears.

I think it's Pianoteq's character that it has more hammer noise and less low-mid energy than some other piano libraries.

johnrule · Post by **johnrule** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:11 pm

If the piano was invented today, it would not be the clunky behemoth that we know, and obsessively cling to. Why are we trying to recreate damper pedal noise in the 21st century? And hammer noise? I even read a comment from someone that wanted the "woosh" sound as the hammer arm travels through the air.

An expressive instrument that makes us passionate about playing is more important than all of that, isn't it? Let's not obsess about the wrong stuff. We should re-evaluate what "real" and "convincing" actually mean. If it means a recreation of a centuries old noise box, then maybe it's time to take a break and play a jaw harp for a while.

vic_france · Post by **vic_france** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:16 pm

oscarolarte wrote:Bluether+D4 + Solid EQ (native instruments) and EastWest Spaces Reverb MASTERED WITH ISOTOPE OZONE

Tell me what do you think.

Am I understanding correctly.. thats the Bluether and the D4 layered? (so, two instances of pianoteq?)

logburner · Post by **logburner** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:37 pm

johnrule wrote:If the piano was invented today, it would not be the clunky behemoth that we know, and obsessively cling to. Why are we trying to recreate damper pedal noise in the 21st century? And hammer noise? I even read a comment from someone that wanted the "woosh" sound as the hammer arm travels through the air.

An expressive instrument that makes us passionate about playing is more important than all of that, isn't it? Let's not obsess about the wrong stuff. We should re-evaluate what "real" and "convincing" actually mean. If it means a recreation of a centuries old noise box, then maybe it's time to take a break and play a jaw harp for a while.

I don't mean to be offensive by any means, but perhaps you are missing some reasons why people talk about virtual pianos in this thread.

First of all, we all love the sound of pianos. And we all like to use great virtual pianos for reasons (be it functional or financial). The sound of pianos in everyone's mind is undeniably acoustic pianos (or recordings of them). Acoustic pianos are large in size and have hammer noise because that's the design that defines the sound of acoustic pianos.

If one wants something different, he could design and make his own instrument that's appropriate for the 21st century, and that doesn't have to sound like a piano so long as he can express himself in music with such instrument.

On the other hand, some people want damper pedal noise with a virtual piano because he could play the hammer-action keyboard like a real piano if his brain can be tricked and treat it as an acoustic piano, knowing that it isn't.

That's where the words "realistic" or "convincing" come along. If one can accept a degree of compromise with a virtual piano to play/compose/produce music, a virtual piano is more than adequate for the purpose. Some people find virtual piano A's response unacceptable while others find piano B's sound not comfortable enough to play as a substitute for an acoustic piano for the purpose.

Am I making sense?

pixel85 · Post by **pixel85** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:03 pm

I love imperfections and noises like pedal sound etc. I love to use it in my music. Sterile perfect sound is good but for certain genres.

The thing is, virtual piano is for users who can't afford real thing, not to replace it. So we should be glad that we have amazing 'emulations' that will convince most of people that it was played on real piano (with great programming/playing skills of course). We just have to remember that it's not to replace real piano and it shouldn't be IMO.

fisherKing · Post by **fisherKing** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:37 pm

much of this is only relevant to the music-making. i make music for others, and no one's ever complained about the quality of the piano sound, whether i use the logic grandpiano (a lot, and i think it's actually from garageband), or another logic piano...or pianoteq.

if you're doing solo piano recordings, i understand the concern. if you're doing a piano part in a pop song, a rock track, etc...the listener will not care what the source was, ie a 'real' piano, a sampled one, a modeled one.

my main concern is how the final song SOUNDS, and how the piano i'm using fits in.

oscarolarte · Post by **oscarolarte** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:05 pm

Finally, last week we did our test, we are going to post it on youtube.
You will hear the real thing vs a virtual piano. We tried to be as faithful as we could, thus we used:

1-YAMAHA Grand Piano
2-VPC-1 from KWAI as Master
3-MacBook Pro 15" the latest one 16GB RAM- 500GB SSD
4-Logic Pro X
5-PianoTeq 5 with D4 and Bluethner.
6-Apogee Symphony 2x6
7-Adam Audio A7X near field
8-Neuman KH 310 mid field.
--------
9-Canon C300 MKII with 17-120 Motorized Zoom
10- 2 Senheisser MKH 416 P48 configured in Binaural Scheme.

We invited.

1-Professional Piano Concertist
2-Professional Sound Engenier and Producer.
3-Professional TV and Film producer
4-Professional Piano Composer.
5-Film Director and Creator.

Every one said what they felt during all the trials and tests.
I believe it's going to be a high value video document.

Setup Preview. Soon you will have a teaser and the final video.
https://twitter.com/adholife/status/743567758382751744

realtrance · Post by **realtrance** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:29 am

I look forward to the comparison.

I spent a decade and a half, many years ago, studying to become a classical concert pianist. I had the opportunity to practice on many lovely pianos, and grew to know the tone of them, one in particular, a Steinway Model B, quite intimately.

Recordings no matter how good have never captured the sound of being right there with the instrument's lively, ever changing reverberations, and shifting harmonics, even playing just one note. Think Beethoven's Waldstein or Hammerklavier sonatas, for example.

Later on in life, giving up the idea of being a concert pianist, I shifted to interest in electronic sound synthesis instead. I've evolved in my tastes, and learned to accept sample-based pianos of a wide variety for what they are. Good enough for recording with other instruments, even solo if it's a modern representation. But always, always, while playing, obviously not the real thing.

Any sampled note is always going to play the same way. Period. No matter how good the layering and velocity switching. You can introduce great variety with such script-based techniques -- Native Instruments' Kontakt pianos are great, thorough, well-researched examples -- but in the end,it's always going to feel, to someone like me, not quite there.

I just recently took the chance on Pianoteq 5, though, and wow: I can say adamantly and with no doubt or hesitation that this is the closest I've come to playing a real piano.

The modeling of the sympathetic resonances, in real time, between notes as they resonate against the soundboard with each other, the quality of hammer strike feel, when properly calibrated to a physical controller with a good keybed, and lots more (and all tweak able, if you pay enough -- certainly less than the $50k to $150k US you'd pay for the real thing!).... it's enough to leave me without regret I'm not one of those people who buys a Steinway D for their estate just as a room ornament, without the faintest ability to really play it.

I can enjoy Pianoteq, with my training, ear, skills, and knowledge about the real instrument, in ways I will never be able to with a sample based reconstruction. As someone who enjoys the dynamic feel of playing. It's a player's instrument, not a recording engineer's easily mixable dream. That alone is absolutely unique.

So basically... Evil Dragon is completely right in this thread.

I'll continue to enjoy synthesis and NI's fantastic sampled work; it's all good; but there's no denying the quality of Pianoteq at this point as a truly successful, expressive instrument. It truly feels like a piano to those who really have an intimate sense of what playing a real one is like.

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:10 am

Realtrance- I completely agree that there is no substitute for the real thing. I have a Steinway B at my disposal, and the difference between that and any sample set is night and day. I also agree that it doesn't matter on mixed instrument recordings, but for the pleasure of simply playing the instrument, there is no comparison.

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:14 am

realtrance wrote:Any sampled note is always going to play the same way. Period. No matter how good the layering and velocity switching. You can introduce great variety with such script-based techniques -- Native Instruments' Kontakt pianos are great, thorough, well-researched examples -- but in the end,it's always going to feel, to someone like me, not quite there.

What do you think of Vienna Imperial Grand? The demos sound like great recordings of great pianos to me.

crystalmsc · Post by **crystalmsc** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:23 am

Pianoteq is the perfect product for me as an electronic musician. It's been a long journey that I've been very hesitate to install a piano sample with large HD space. Had been looking for a plugin which is light, but highly playable and sounds good in a mix. Especially since I used to learn and play a lot on a very nice Kawai upright piano and never clicked with a sampling piano. The feeling of playing a real piano is truly irreplaceable, but there's something with the Pianoteq that's comfortable to play with. Also with 3 current favorites (D4, K2, B), it's just so adaptable in the song writing environment. Each model provides a different playing style for diverse type of music.

tristan- · Post by **tristan-** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:22 am

The pianos from the Roland Integra 7 with the SuperNatural engine beats the s*** out of Pianoteq.
but if we discuss only plugins, in terms of playability Pianoteq is probably the best. not sound-wise, though. some Kontakt libs are 1000x better! ESPECIALLY Galaxy pianos (Vintage D, Steinway, Vienna). awesome stuff.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:57 am

Yeah but they are still samples in the Integra. The only physically modelled hardware piano I know of is the Roland V Piano, not compared that to Pianoteq though.

tristan- · Post by **tristan-** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:12 am

aMUSEd wrote:Yeah but they are still samples in the Integra. The only physically modelled hardware piano I know of is the Roland V Piano, not compared that to Pianoteq though.

the Integra does it by samples and modeling, hence "SuperNatural"

and it sounds and plays like a dream.
I bought the I7 for the XV5080 patches, but eventually I found out that the new supernatural sounds are absolutely crackin'

Best Piano - PIANOTEQ