Bitwig

schwa9 · Post by **schwa9** » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:57 pm

I'm wondering if any other users have experienced the following:

(I'm using Bitwig 1.3.12/13 and Falcon 1.1.4 on OSX 10.11)

I find it necessary to use the "Force MPE" mode, otherwise everything goes to MIDI channel 1. When "Force MPE" mode is enabled, everything behaves as expected.

Until...

Once a clip in the clip launcher has been invoked, Falcon only produces audio when the clip (or another) is playing. When the clip is stopped, Falcon no longer produces any audio, even though the track is armed for recording, and MIDI information continues to be sent (I can see the modulation controls react to MIDI input).

I can be even more specific. Notes that I play afterward are only heard while a note is playing in the clip. If there is a section in the clip with no notes, then notes that I play are not heard. To make this more concrete, say I record a clip playing C1 for 10 seconds, then silence for 10 seconds, then C1 again for 10 seconds. Then, while the clip is looping, if I play C3 at 5 seconds, then I hear it. But if I play C3 at 15 seconds (during the silence), then it is not heard. If I play it again at 25 seconds, then it is heard.

I can be even MORE specific, if someone asks, but I'm trying not to make this a full-blown bug report. Suffice to say that this is 100% reproducible (for me).

I understand that the standard isn't even ratified yet, so I'm willing to be patient. But I would like some feedback. I've contacted Bitwig tech support, but they have been unresponsive, so I'm wondering if MPE support is working flawlessly for everyone else.

schwa9 · Post by **schwa9** » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:58 pm

I should say that, other than my issues with MPE, I like Bitwig very very much.

Echoes in the Attic · Post by **Echoes in the Attic** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:59 am

Does the same thing happen with the Bitwig instruments? What controller are you using? I am on the verge of buying a linnstrument 128 and this would be a total showstopper for live looping obviously but also way too annoying for just regular overdubbing.

Have you submitted a bug report? Best to do that with an example project using their own instruments if repeatable.

Echoes in the Attic · Post by **Echoes in the Attic** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:39 pm

Just want to add that I tried to replicate that but couldn't. I was able to play over clips during silent parts and parts with notes. Everything behaved normally. I tested with PolySynth and Poly-Ana. Maybe a Falcon issue? See if you get the problem with the built-in synths and then if you do still get the problem, write support with the steps to reproduce.

schwa9 · Post by **schwa9** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:17 am

The Bitwig native instruments work great with MPE; I've never had a problem with them.

I'm using a Linnstrument "classic"

Yes, I have submitted two bug reports. The first was for Omnisphere 2. IIRC, Dom responded promptly; the gist of the response was "I didn't think that Omnisphere supported MPE". I had to admit that it didn't, although it's possible to sort-of fake it using multis (as described on the Linnstrument website). I didn't hear back after that.

The second was for Falcon. I didn't hear a response at all for that bug report.

I just verified that this still happens for me with Bitwig 1.3.14, Falcon 1.2, and Omnisphere.

Are you on Mac or Windows?

Echoes in the Attic · Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:50 am

Crap, you're right, it does happen with Omnisphere! Although after recording a first clip, I can't hear any notes being played after that, regardless of whether notes in the clip are being played or not. If I trigger a new clip to record, I still don't hear any notes when I play. However the notes record and then if I play the clip, I do hear the notes being triggered. Weird. in Omnisphere the little boxes are lighting up for the parts so it seems like it is receiving messages. By the way I tested Kontakt and don't have the problem there.

Edit: Actually I just tested Omni again and I did get that issue you described where I could hear new notes I played, only if other notes were playing in the clip, but then they didn't sound when no notes were playing in the clip. However this behavior only lasted a few seconds and then no note were audible after that at all.

Strange indeed. I'll have to report this one.

FYI - I'm on Windows 10 and testing this with the Bitwig touchscreen keyboard grid. So it is not specific to the linnstrument.

Echoes in the Attic · Post by **Echoes in the Attic** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:08 pm

Ok I did some more testing and this is pretty messed up. I think it's worth clarifying that this isn't just a clip launcher issue. As soon as a notes have been recorded anywhere, in the arrangement regions or clips, you also lose the sound from any voices that have already been played. Try this: Record a region where you hold one note. Now stop it and try to play a note. You won't hear anything. Now, while holding that first note, play another. You hear that. Same thing happens when you record something where two notes or more have played simultaneously within the region or clip. You'd have to hold down two or however many had played before at the same time and then you'll the next one in the chord. Same goes for playing over top of the clip. See this is why you heard sound when some notes where already playing, but sometimes I didn't. If the maximum number of notes are playing that every triggered, then playing another note is audible. If at some point in your clip there were 3 notes simultaneously, then if you try to play over a section with two notes playing, your first held note would not be audible, but an additional one would be. Crazy. But why does it only affect Omnisphere and Falcon (so far)

So you should change the thread title to at least reflect the fact that sound stops any time a clip or region has been created with notes.

thetechnobear · Post by **thetechnobear** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:10 pm

I can reproduce this with Falcon, but Madrona Labs Aalto seems to work fine. (Strobe 2 seemed to work ok too)

Im using Madrona Labs Soundplane sending MPE data, BWS 1.3.14, Mac OSX 10.11.6

whats odd with Falcon, if you try to play a new note 'during the silence', even the reverb seems to be cut.

also its not just clips, even if you are in arrangement mode, and loop the section, it has the same behaviour.

out of interest, I then tried Falcon with Cubase 8.5, again looping , and it behaved perfectly correctly there.

so seems to be some odd interaction between BWS and Falcon (and perhaps some other VSTs)

Echoes in the Attic · Post by **Echoes in the Attic** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:24 pm

thetechnobear wrote:I can reproduce this with Falcon, but Madrona Labs Aalto seems to work fine. (Strobe 2 seemed to work ok too)

Im using Madrona Labs Soundplane sending MPE data, BWS 1.3.14, Mac OSX 10.11.6

whats odd with Falcon, if you try to play a new note 'during the silence', even the reverb seems to be cut.

also its not just clips, even if you are in arrangement mode, and loop the section, it has the same behaviour.

out of interest, I then tried Falcon with Cubase 8.5, again looping , and it behaved perfectly correctly there.

so seems to be some odd interaction between BWS and Falcon (and perhaps some other VSTs)

Did you read my two posts above? I've been testing with Omnisphere with the same issues. And I already mentioned it happens in arrangement, and you don't have to be looping. And I went on to describe more exact details about what notes can play and which don't.

The really weird thing is that Falcon has an MPE script, but Omnisphere is simply copies of the instrument on different midi channels. Kontakt is similar yet doesn't have this problem when you have duplicated instruments on different channels.

This really stinks. I was just abuot to buy a linnstrument and Omnisphere was the main instrument I was going to use with it, but this isn't usable like this.

thetechnobear · Post by **thetechnobear** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:47 pm

I read one of your posts, the other you entered whilst i was typing....

anyway, I can tell you :
- what the bug is in BWS
- why it affects Falcon (and probably Omnisphere) and not things like Aalto

ok, the bug is BWS is sending CC 11 = 0 before the note on, when its in arrangement or clip looping. CC 11 = Expression (often interpreted as volume )

the reason this affects Falcon, is by default you will find modulator for CC 11 to turn down the patch volume to zero.
if you remove this Falcon works, perfectly ok.
(its likely omnisphere is also responding to it, perhaps optionally)

Aalto/Strobe 2 work fine, because neither of care about CC11 (unless you explicitly patch it)

so Bitwig should stop sending CC 11/0 there is no requirement for it, and it is not part of the MPE spec. and will cause issues with reverb tails (as i noted in my earlier test).
However, you should be able to workaround it with most plugins, and you definitely can for Falcon which was the OP's main issue.

schwa9 · Post by **schwa9** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:59 pm

Wow, thanks thetechnobear!

May I ask, how did you figure this out? Did you have a correct hunch, verified by removing the CC11 modulator in Falcon? Or did you somehow inspect the midi sequence sent from BWS to Falcon, or...?

I'm about to attempt to replicate your findings.

[EDIT: I incorrectly recollected that Falcon's volume meter shows that Falcon is generating sounds even though none is heard in BWS].

Echoes, I couldn't figure out how to change the post title. Can you give me a hint? BTW, I always knew that the problem was both with the arrangement and clip looping, but I thought it would be less confusing if I described one easy-to-replicate case. Probably laziness was also a factor

thetechnobear · Post by **thetechnobear** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:09 pm

schwa9 wrote:May I ask, how did you figure this out?

I used Bidule - I hosted bidule inside BWS, then in bidule hosted Falcon and a midi monitor.
I could hear the same issue, so simply looked at the midi message BWS was sending. as CC11 is expr/volume, so when it appeared it was reasonably 'obvious' that was the cause, especially as Id already noted the reverb being 'cut' ... which was kind of a giveaway it was global patch volume

so then to test, I added a CC filter in bidule to check, and viola it worked...

then went to Falcon, and looked at its modifiers, and there it was CC 11 (as I mentioned, its not uncommon for VST and hardware synths to by default respond to it) , set it ratio to 0... bingo it also worked.

Bidule is a useful tool if you want to test a hosts behaviour.

anyway, hopefully this will allow you to get back to Falcon with MPE, its really nice isn't it

p.s. I sent Bitwig support an email explaining the issue, and with a reference to this post, so hopefully they can fix it for a future release.

schwa9 · Post by **schwa9** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:19 pm

Hooray! I can verify that disabling the CC11 modulator fixes the problem for me! This is great news!

Looks like I may need to spring for a copy of Bidule.

Thanks again!

thetechnobear · Post by **thetechnobear** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:28 pm

enjoy

Echoes in the Attic · Post by **Echoes in the Attic** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:59 pm

Looks like disabling the expression pedal on all the Omnisphere parts makes it work as well. I guess expression controls volume by default? I didn't realize that. Anyways thanks for figuring that out technobear! And yes I hope they change this behavior in Bitwig.

Bitwig

KVR Audio

Bad interaction between clip launcher and "Force MPE"?