Tone2 will release Icarus - 3D WaveTable Synthesizer

[pdxindy]

Icarus can absolutely sound like Monark for some patches.

similar yes... but that is it... the filter is different... the Osc's are different... the features are different

and once you are claiming that Icarus can do some similar subtractive sounds as an analog synth, then that is also true of just about every single vst synth...

[OneOfManyPauls]

similar yes... but that is it... the filter is different... the Osc's are different... the features are different

that's another red herring. nobody is arguing that icarus emulates any entire synth in sound or operation.

and once you are claiming that Icarus can do some similar subtractive sounds as an analog synth, then that is also true of just about every single vst synth...

I am claiming that Icarus can do convincing analog synth parts - not least because I've tried it, and it clearly can.

the difference to "just about every single vst synth" is the 3 x 2048 sample x 256 waveform wavetable oscillators, which can be used to house raw waveform samples taken from a huge range of actual hardware synths, combined with decent analog filter emulations including a moog 24 db LP.

Icarus deserves credit for the entire range of what it can do, and not to have lazy assumption become accepted wisdom.

[Ingonator]

To have a simple way of selecting different Sawtooth and Square waveforms for certain patches i just created 2 wavetables based on 6 different synths. From those i then pick the waveform that fits best for the patch (while it is also possible to use waveforms from differnt synths in a single patch). The Wave knob also allows using interpolations which could be useful too and if necessary a new wavetable with crossfading of the waveforms could be done.

Here is a download for the 2 wavetables, each with 6 different Saws or Squares:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... on%201.zip

The synths and corresponding waveform numbers in the tables are:
1: Icarus INIT Sawtooth or Square
2: NI Monark
3: Moog Slim Phatty
4: Novation Bass Station II
5: Novation UltraNova
6: Korg DW-8000

A bigger differnce seems to be found between the Icarus waveforms and the others as those Icarus INIT waveforms are "perfect" Saws or Squares opposing to the waveforms received from the outputs of the other synths (at full Cutoff).

Along the differnt waceforms the biggest differences seem to mostly be foud in lower octaves. You will also find differences depending on the filter mode and filter settings used so just comparing the raw waveforms at full Cutoff or without a filter could be misleading. Also when used with certain Osc Morph modes there could be either subtle or more obvious differences when using the waveforms based on the different synths.
For example while using the "FM Sine" Morph mode at high FM amounts i had the impression that compared to the other Saws the the Moog Slim Phatty Saw produces a better low end. I was also able to see that difference in a signal analyzer. There could be also differences in other harmonics between the different Saw/Square waveforms which in certaion cases is quite obvious.
With FM, especially at higher amounts, even small differnces in the waveforms could result in bigger differences in the resulting sound (except Sine that should be a single harmonic).
Not to forget that the FM in Icarus is real FM and no phase modulation (like in Nemesis) which depending on the waveforms used could make a differnce too.

[OneOfManyPauls]

I've not tried it, but it might be interesting to create a wavetable by sweeping the oscillator pitch on the hardware synth, then using key in the Icarus modulation matrix so that different notes use different waveforms from roughly the right part of the hardware sweep.

[Ingonator]

I've not tried it, but it might be interesting to create a wavetable by sweeping the oscillator pitch on the hardware synth, then using key in the Icarus modulation matrix so that different notes use different waveforms from roughly the right part of the hardware sweep.

I am not sure if i really understand this. What do you mean with "different" waveforms? Just with a differnt pitch? For that you also use a single waveform and the pitch controls in Icarus or certain Morph modes like e.g. "Interval".

Independent of that using keytracking to map a wavetable across the key range is possible with every wavetable (with routing "Key" to the Wave knob).
This is a feature that was alraedy used with patches in the good old PPG Wave 2 or the Waldorf synths.

Concerning the wavetable i just posted (taht with differnt Saws(Squares) i tcoudl be interesting to use this for having different Saws at the low, middle and high octaves.

[OneOfManyPauls]

I am not sure if i really understand this. What do you mean with "different" waveforms? Just with a differnt pitch? For that you also use a single waveform and the pitch controls in Icarus.

If you look at an analog synth with an oscilloscope, you'll see there is a difference in the actual waveform shape at varying pitches, eg a square tends to look less and less square as you go lower in pitch.

here's an example of a the same square wave on a moog sub 37 at low (left) and high (right) pitch:

sub37_square.jpg

I tend to sample at 130.81 Hz (c3) as I find this to be the best compromise.

my thought was to try sampling a frequency sweep, and use "key" to select waveforms that roughly map to the played note position.

[Ingonator]

I am not sure if i really understand this. What do you mean with "different" waveforms? Just with a differnt pitch? For that you also use a single waveform and the pitch controls in Icarus.

If you look at an analog synth with an oscilloscope, you'll see there is a difference in the actual waveform shape at varying pitches, eg a square tends to look less and less square as you go lower in pitch.

here's an example of a the same square wave on a moog sub 37 at low (left) and high (right) pitch:

sub37_square.jpg

I tend to sample at 130.81 Hz (c3) as I find this to be the best compromise.

my thought was to try sampling a frequency sweep, and use "key" to select waveforms that roughly map to the played note position.

Many thanks for the detailed explanation. I guess now i know what you wanted to do.

I could give a try with my Bass Station II that has a Mod Env Pitch modulation parameter (similar to a "Pitch envelope") for both main Oscs.

There could be a problem to import single cycles at differnt pitches as wit hsingle cycles this is usually eliminated. Anyway doing multiple samples at differnt notes and combining them in a new wavetable should work for sure.

UPDATE:
I just did a try with a Pitch sweep in my Bass Station II and omporting this by Resynthesis. Like i alraedy expected when i first read about that idea this does not really work as teh pitch information is eliminated when importing by Resynthesis. Besides that the imported waveforms look quite strange that way.
My guess is you have to create samples at multiple notes and re-combine those in a new wavetable. I will try that too.

[OneOfManyPauls]

if Icarus always tries to split cycles out of a sample at the same frequency across the whole sample then that would prevent it working as I'd hoped for a frequency sweep.

In terms of best use of the 256 waveforms per wavetable, that might be to generate small batches of waveforms for a single note per octave and evenly distribute those across the 256 waveform slots and use "key" plus a bit of lfo/random for the variation. That would retain a bit of analog variation/character as well as giving a closer actual waveform shape for the played note.

[PietW.]

I am not sure if i really understand this. What do you mean with "different" waveforms? Just with a differnt pitch? For that you also use a single waveform and the pitch controls in Icarus.

I tend to sample at 130.81 Hz (c3) as I find this to be the best compromise.

C3 = 261 Hz 169 Samples
C2 = 131 Hz 337 Samples

[Ingonator]

If you look at an analog synth with an oscilloscope, you'll see there is a difference in the actual waveform shape at varying pitches, eg a square tends to look less and less square as you go lower in pitch.

here's an example of a the same square wave on a moog sub 37 at low (left) and high (right) pitch:



I tend to sample at 130.81 Hz (c3) as I find this to be the best compromise.

my thought was to try sampling a frequency sweep, and use "key" to select waveforms that roughly map to the played note position.

I am currently doing samples from the Sawtooth in my Bass Station II with 2 notes per octave (C and F#). I try so start with very low pitch (octave + semitone settings in the oscillator at minimum) and end with a very high one. At the end it should be around 7 or 8 octaves and 2 notes per octave should be enough to get teh differences in teh waveforms.

UPDATE:
Based on the Sawtooth in my Bass Station II i had created 15 samples from 8 octaves (except for one of them 2 notes per octave). The resulting waveform do not only look differnt, they also sound differntly. Anyway with the single cycles the pitch differences are eliminated so the differences after importing into Icarus are only in the sound. The result especially at waveforms resulting from higher octaves sounds differntly to using full samples at the same notes (the single cycles could be used at any octave available in the Icarus Oscs).

Opposing to what one might expect in the resulting single cycle waveforms the high frequencies decrease and the low frequencies stay the same or even increase along waveforms taken at lower notes to those at higher notes. In the Bass Station II the filter keytracking for the Classic filter is fixed to 100% which theoretically has an influence too. Actually the resulting waveforms do sound like closing the Cutoff of a Lowpass filter. on teh other hand usually the filter keytrack should not have an influence when the Cutoff is set to maximum (like when doing the samples). I just checked that with Monark at maximum Cutoff and filter keytrack on/off.

Here is how those 15 waveforms look in the wavetable display of Icarus (the waveform selection to be precise):

BSII_Multi%20Saws%20WT%201.png

UPDATE:
I just did the same with the Saw in Monark (full Cutoff, filter keytrack off) and while the overall sound is not 100% similar the differences between waveforms created from samples at low notes to those at high notes is comparable and the changes to the waveform shapes are very similar.

[pdxindy]

Icarus deserves credit for the entire range of what it can do, and not to have lazy assumption become accepted wisdom.

Orwell nailed it... War is Peace. People just routinely flip things 180 degrees these days.

You are the one making a claim about Icarus, backed up by absolutely nothing (lazy) and trying to make it be accepted wisdom. If you want people to agree with your assertion, demonstrate it. Let's hear your MiniMoog (Monark if that is what you have) vs Icarus audio examples.

[OneOfManyPauls]

C3 = 261 Hz 169 Samples
C2 = 131 Hz 337 Samples

yes, sorry - I wrote C3 as in Icarus I have to use C3 for the resynthesis note, otherwise each waveform contains 2 cycles, doubling the frequency and moving it up an octave as a result.

I use Medla Analyzer and C2/130.8Hz for the actual sampling.

You are the one making a claim about Icarus, backed up by absolutely nothing (lazy) and trying to make it be accepted wisdom. If you want people to agree with your assertion, demonstrate it. Let's hear your MiniMoog (Monark if that is what you have) vs Icarus audio examples.

backed up by absolutely nothing?!

Over the last few weeks I've posted numerous wavetables generated from various hardware analog synths - sub 37 / mother 32 / prophet 12 (ok, digital osc+analog filter) / roland jd-xa - on here and/or on the tone 2 icarus forum. some of those include simple patches to use as starting points.

I've posted how best to use the wavetables, but here's a recap. all you need to do is load the wavetables into the 3 oscillators and then create the bones of the patch as you would on a hardware synth (cutoff/res/vca/vcf/env amt etc). I'd recommend setting fade to zero, and turning eq off. Excluding PWM/sub 37, I'd use different free running LFOs of 2Hz and faster in the mod matrix to change wavetable position. The LP butter 24db filter is the one I prefer. It's also an idea to do a bit of very subtle modulation of the fine pitch control too.

for pwm and sub 37 (which uses continuously variable waveforms), you just use the wavetable position as you would on the hardware synth for PWM/sub 37 wave position.

rather than digging through this thread, the tone 2 icarus thread has all the files I've posted there:

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=2411.0

if that's lazy, then I apologize, but it's hardly rocket science to try this yourself.

[OneOfManyPauls]

oh, just realized that I did previously upload a couple of audio examples too using those wavetables. they were posted in this thread before I made my baseless claim...

a sub 37 patch:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vgbp1nfzr5c2r ... m.wav?dl=0

a series of mother 32 patches:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e9xy0pbh6y5c4 ... v.wav?dl=0

the forum messes up the links - you need to right click on them and copy the address not just press play.

[woodsdenis]

oh, just realized that I did previously upload a couple of audio examples too using those wavetables. they were posted in this thread before I made my baseless claim...

a sub 37 patch:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vgbp1nfzr5c2r ... m.wav?dl=0

a series of mother 32 patches:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e9xy0pbh6y5c4 ... v.wav?dl=0

the forum messes up the links - you need to right click on them and copy the address not just press play.

I think if you put these in a public folder in DB the links will work.

[Ingonator]

Icarus also has an interesting way to get a new wavetable based on a single waveform using the "Sweep" feature in the wavetable editor.
To use this you could load a single waveform at Slot 1 of the editor or create one from scratch (or inside te editor select a waveform from the table and use TRIM), then click on "SWEEP" at the left of the editor and select one of the modes from teh drop down menu (Mostly similar to teh Morph modes selection).
This creates a wavetable with 256 waveforms (some modes craete a smaller amount) that are similar to modulation of the Morph knob in the Oscs where the first waveform of the new wavetable is having the Morph knob at minimum and at the last one at maximum.
It could be also necessary to select all waveforms and use "Maximize Volume" from teh MIX menu to increase the volume.

You could also use teh resultingb wavetable in combination with other editing features in the editor or an Osc Morph mode inside the Osc section.

An easy way to reduce the size of a 256 waves wavetable without much loss of quality is using "Half size interpolated" at the MIX menu in the editor.