KVR Audio

beegee · Post by **beegee** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:43 pm

This site is fantastic http://chords.jpglomot.com/#

I was going to post this on an existing thread but as there seem to be a few threads related to scales and chords, I decided to start a new one.

This relatively new site is fully interactive and a brilliant resource. It has heaps of scales, a "name that chord" feature and lots of video links (click on "Infos" on each page to see if there are any links). It's definitely worth checking out.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:05 am

good news and bad news

good news first: I selected an improbable chord - if not an undesirable chord - and the result, the way this was handled, was cool.
I chose Bb for root. So Bbmaj7 add11: Bb D F A Eb Bb, *Eb down a P5 to the reiterated root. Which softens the blow of that tritone and min. 9th.

It's pretty musical. Now, this kind of chord has been strenuously objected to out of a conventional basis or even aesthetic, but this (and a couple others like this, with that P5 at top voicing) has a nice mysterious effect.

So, the presence here of several major triad "add 11" iterations kind of tells us the coder of this is not a jazz person; that and eg., "dom7 add13" (dominant 7 with a 13 does not require "add" for the 13, in fact this is not done.

NOW, the bad news. None of the '13th' chords on Bb root give a 13th. "dom7 add13" just gives 'Bb7'.

Also, the minor chords from Bb so far give a C# rather than Db.
AND, while the reiteration of the root Bb softened the harsh of maj7 add11, doubling it for a #9 is gross. The b13 of "#9 b13" gives nat.11 anyway, making matters worse. (one of the factors in jazz reasoning, is that #11 resembles the 11th partial and it's the 9th partial to the maj. 3rd in such constructions.
The same type of reasoning (*: P5/3rd partial, consonant) might result in that maj7 add11, but it may be dumb luck. Most (prob. all) of these double the root, which is not so good in many of these.
Look, bigass extensions are a jazz thing. The principles are tried and true. This isn't to say don't experiment insanely, but the lack of real-world experience showed in the end, here.

So there are significant issues here, like the 13th from Bb never happens
{The little graphic in the RH top corner displayed A# to begin with. 3rd of Bb minor misspelled...}...

SO, I am always suspicious of software that purports to do it all for you. This is a good example of why.

Why not get to where you know what the 13th to Bb is at once (or at all! it seems like the person made this missed the memo)? come on.
Yer in a screaming hurry, are ya? Nah, get your actual chops together. FFS.

This is a crutch, you aren't lame right out of the gate are you?

beegee · Post by **beegee** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:45 am

It's not my site but I do still think it's fantastic, so I guess I am "lame right out of the gate". You are correct there are a lot of enharmonic errors - the notation wasn't there when I used it yesterday - lots of errors, I preferred it without this feature.

JeanPhi · Post by **JeanPhi** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:17 am

Hi. I am the developer: )
Thanks for all these infos info and feedbacks. I always work on new versions. I agree I m not a jazz theory expert and have a lot to learn.
Concerning the not played 13th of the Bb . This is because the note does not appear on the too short keyboard. It appears in the chords structure (top screen) and info structure.
I agree I have implementation issues concerning different displays of the same notes like A# and Bb for example. Is it really a concrete problem for the musician?
You think the stave display (top right) is not a good thing?

JeanPhi · Post by **JeanPhi** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:51 am

If I resume what I could change
- Notes not included in the displayed keyboard (the 13th of Bb for example) could be played however and displayed on the top right stave panel
- Do you mean that "dom7 add13" has to be renamed ? "Dom7 13" ?
- And mainly : Concerning the Bb/A# exemple choice, I have to identify and implement the good rules

beegee · Post by **beegee** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:11 am

Hi JeanPhi, congratulations on your site, I love it.

The reason I said I didn't like the stave being there was because of all the incorrect enharmonic notes. It is important to have it correctly displayed. For example if you notate an E flat 7 with a C# it's no longer a 7th chord, so I'd rather not see it. It would also stop teachers from using your site. When did you add this feature?

Cheers,
beegee

JeanPhi · Post by **JeanPhi** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:43 am

Added it 2 days ago
Yes. I think I will hide this feature for now and fix it for the next release
Thanks

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:46 pm

JeanPhi wrote:Hi. I am the developer: )
Thanks for all these infos info and feedbacks. I always work on new versions. I agree I m not a jazz theory expert and have a lot to learn.

Ok, then.

JeanPhi wrote: Concerning the not played 13th of the Bb . This is because the note does not appear on the too short keyboard. It appears in the chords structure (top screen) and info structure.

What? It's G, dude. You have failed to make it appear. If there is a technical limit to this extent, you shouldn't have done the thing. This excuse insults our intelligence.

JeanPhi wrote:I agree I have implementation issues concerning different displays of the same notes like A# and Bb for example. Is it really a concrete problem for the musician?

YES IT IS. Since you are this much a neophyte, perhaps you could be ethical enough to eschew making things which will screw up a beginner's understanding early on.

There is no key of A# in the circle of fifths, for example. The major scale on A# is A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx (A#). The x symbol represents double sharp. There are three double sharp notes in this key, which isn't really done in key signatures.

beegee wrote:if you notate an E flat 7 with a C# it's no longer a 7th chord, so I'd rather not see it. It would also stop teachers from using your site.

Right, Eb to C# is an augmented sixth; there is actually an augmented sixth chord type (which is not V dominant of Ab, such as <Eb7> will be).
The aug. 6th is a major 6th with the top note raised a semitone. EG: Eb/C now Eb/C#. This one comes from iv6 of G minor, ie., C minor in 1st inversion (the figure 6 represents that 6th): Eb G C. So Eb G C# is an instance of the basic aug 6th (iv+6); typically Eb/C# will explode to D/D.

Hmmm, beegee. I was not directing <crutch/lame> at you particularly and it appears you aren't lame. Lame needing a crutch, right? Gee, I hope that metaphor isn't too difficult. So, what's the deal with your advocacy {"I love it!"}? You begin to look like a shill.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:50 pm

dupe, and dupe some more again

confounding edit with quote, and then doing it again! What's my excuse.

- anyway, if this is incorrect to the degree the most enthusiastic proponent states 'teachers won't use it', I find consensus that we have a problem.
I trust others will explain why A# is not Bb, but I recommend just looking closely at a circle of fifths depiction.

.jon · Post by **.jon** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:22 pm

The site is fantastic, clear and easy to use. Thanks!

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:41 pm

JeanPhi wrote:I have implementation issues concerning different displays of the same notes like A# and Bb for example. Is it really a concrete problem for the musician?

Yes. As Jan says, you need to sort this (and all other errors) out before you make something like this public, or you will do more than good.

Are you doing this for others or for yourself? - No offence, but there is no shortage of music teachers and reputable music textbooks out there. If you can't compete with that, then it's probably safer - for others at least - not to bother at all.

JeanPhi · Post by **JeanPhi** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:34 pm

No. I think I will continue. Thanks for your advices

JeanPhi · Post by **JeanPhi** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:53 pm

As a first step, i added the choice :
- to display both names : C#/Db D#/Eb etc
- or to display a more concise (but not correct) arbitrary choice : C# Eb F# G# Bb
I have to test before publication. But it can previewed here :
http://test.chords.jpglomot.com / menu 'options' / Choice 'Sharp/Flat display'
Constructive advices welcome!

beegee · Post by **beegee** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:42 am

Hi jancivil,

To clarify, yes I loved it the way it was - pre notation, and would quickly fall out of love if the mistakes remained.

Whilst I think I would probably enjoy the label of harmony shill, I don't know JeanPhi and before this thread, we had not communicated. Nor did I summons anyone to defend my use of superlatives. I am always more generous if a site is free and if you can point me in the direction of any other free interactive scale sites, I would probably love them too. I guess this is a bit hypocritical given my complaints to paid app developers over the years (Band in a Box - upper case Roman numerals for all chords and enharmonic problems in some keys, FL Studio allowing users to mindlessly stamp in incorrect chords, actually it's quite a lengthy list so I'll stop here).

I hadn't considered the problem of the upper octaves not displaying the full chord - easy to check the octave below if you know what the answer should be, but I agree with you - too confusing. The notation was still there when I last looked yesterday, so clicking on B flat on the home page displayed A# in the notation - bad. I hope JeanPhi can sort all this out.

Cheers

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:00 am

beegee wrote:Whilst I think I would probably enjoy the label of harmony shill, I don't know JeanPhi and before this thread, we had not communicated.

Cheers

Fine, although 'harmony shill' is a nonsensical construction. I think you understand the term shill just as you understood that C# is not the 7th of Eb.

Fantastic scale & chord site