digital performer compared to other daws?

[koolkeys]

'Professional' is defined as whether professionals use it.

I don't think that is how "Professional" is defined..

Er.. yes it is If a professional person uses a tool to perform his profession then, simply by this fact alone, that tool is 'professional'. I can't see how you can dispute that.

think it through, your defn can't possibly be correct, even within common usage. Under your definition a biro tube is a professional tool as doctors have been known to use them in emergency surgery, and coconut water is a professional medical tool as it has been used as an IV fluid (don't try it at home)

Being used by a professional as a tool does not necessarily mean it is a professional tool.

Oh man lol.. I forgot I was at KVR..

Yeah, silly you. Back out of a discussion and insult the community you are taking part in. do_androids_dream FTW!

Now, being real, we're arguing semantics here. A professional can use any tool. But that doesn't make it a professional tool. How do you define professional? Darn if I know. No matter how you do, somebody will disagree with you. I would define a professional tool as one that was built to meet the needs of those making a living in the profession. By that definition, everything can be considered professional.

But if we are, say, trying to claim that Reaper was designed for scoring professionals, and you compare tools that actually WERE designed for that (like DP), then I would dispute that claim. Because Reaper simply isn't up to snuff for the things DP was designed for. Does that mean Reaper isn't a professional tool? No. But in woggle's definition of professional, it is not. Most professional tools are designed with a purpose. Reaper has very little purpose in it's DESIGN. In that sense, I agree with him. Reaper does not have a consistent design or a long-term focus in the way it was designed. They can throw every tiny feature they want into Reaper, but it certainly isn't designed well in terms of UX for specific tasks like film scoring. It isn't cohesive and wasn't designed to do the things DP is obviously designed to do. And it doesn't matter how many extra bits they tack onto the already cluttered design.

But in the end, does it really matter? If Reaper does what you need it to do, great. You don't have needs that match what others need to do. You almost definitely will not be sitting on a film score set with Reaper on the monitor. Could you? Sure. Would any working scoring professional? Not very likely. It wasn't designed for that. And that's ok. Use it for what it does for you, and acknowledge that others will use other tools for what it does for them, and let's get out of here.

Yes, my post is a little heavy on the criticism of Reaper, because I actually agree with woggle on the points he made. But ultimately, does it matter? Nope. I'm just wasting time like the rest of you.

Brent

[woggle]

I am coming to the view that Sonar will be best for my needs which has surprised me as I had more or less forgotten it existed

DP seems overkill and I can't get around the small font issue
Studio One doesn't handle video very well (but has a great design)
Cubase seems pretty good although video on windows is still based on Quicktime apparently
Sonar seems to do everything pretty well (but not the greatest visually, and clip gain visualisation is missing)
Reaper has a lot of advantages but lacks design coherence as is often pointed out - for someone working across conceptually diverse projects that becomes annoying

[koolkeys]

I am coming to the view that Sonar will be best for my needs which has surprised me as I had more or less forgotten it existed

Sonar, despite some workflow issues still needing resolved, is a very powerful host that is coming together nicely since they went the subscription route. It's one of those programs that is a jack of all trades but a master of none, and that seems to work. I have the lifetime license and I'm looking forward to seeing how they continue to improve it. It's odd, but I almost see Sonar as some kind of underdog these days, when it shouldn't be.

DP seems overkill and I can't get around the small font issue

Ya know, I've used DP many times over the years and I enjoy what it is capable of. But until you mentioned it, I was never bothered by the small fonts. Now I can't look at anything else BUT the small fonts when I open it, lol. Thanks a lot!

Cubase seems pretty good although video on windows is still based on Quicktime apparently

Yes, but not for long. They have announced that there will be a free update soon for both 8.5 and any newer versions that are released. So they are working on it, but at the moment it is still Quicktime-based.

Brent

[woggle]

thanks Brent, sorry about the fonts I will play with Sonar for a few more weeks but that lifetime update thing is definitely attractive. And will continue Cubase demo-ing as well. It will probably end up a situation where the options are all great so in some ways it will not make any difference once I settle on a particular system

[do_androids_dream]

Yeah, silly you. Back out of a discussion and insult the community you are taking part in. do_androids_dream FTW!

I didn't realise you were so sensitive.. KVR is certainly an anomaly in music forum land. I read things here that I can find nowhere else

A professional can use any tool. But that doesn't make it a professional tool.

Why not?

No matter how you do, somebody will disagree with you. I would define a professional tool as one that was built to meet the needs of those making a living in the profession. By that definition, everything can be considered professional.

So.. you're contradicting yourself?

But if we are, say, trying to claim that Reaper was designed for scoring professionals, and you compare tools that actually WERE designed for that (like DP), then I would dispute that claim. Because Reaper simply isn't up to snuff for the things DP was designed for. Does that mean Reaper isn't a professional tool? No. But in woggle's definition of professional, it is not. Most professional tools are designed with a purpose. Reaper has very little purpose in it's DESIGN. In that sense, I agree with him. Reaper does not have a consistent design or a long-term focus in the way it was designed. They can throw every tiny feature they want into Reaper, but it certainly isn't designed well in terms of UX for specific tasks like film scoring. It isn't cohesive and wasn't designed to do the things DP is obviously designed to do. And it doesn't matter how many extra bits they tack onto the already cluttered design.

But in the end, does it really matter? If Reaper does what you need it to do, great. You don't have needs that match what others need to do. You almost definitely will not be sitting on a film score set with Reaper on the monitor. Could you? Sure. Would any working scoring professional? Not very likely. It wasn't designed for that. And that's ok. Use it for what it does for you, and acknowledge that others will use other tools for what it does for them, and let's get out of here.

Yes, my post is a little heavy on the criticism of Reaper, because I actually agree with woggle on the points he made. But ultimately, does it matter? Nope. I'm just wasting time like the rest of you.

Brent

Aren't you the guy that used to make big rants on the Reaper forum?

[do_androids_dream]

I get extremely tired of the assertion that Reaper isn't 'professional' - that's the main reason I'm posting here.

I think what a lot of people mean by that is - 'Reaper doesn't have flashy adverts featuring generic over compressed coldplay-a-like music and endorsements by douchebag 'artists' so it can't be professional'

[woggle]

I think what a lot of people mean by that is - 'Reaper doesn't have flashy adverts featuring generic over compressed coldplay-a-like music and endorsements by douchebag 'artists' so it can't be professional'

that's exactly what I meant - thanks for helping out. Coldplay are the best.

[fmr]

I get extremely tired of the assertion that Reaper isn't 'professional' - that's the main reason I'm posting here.

I think what a lot of people mean by that is - 'Reaper doesn't have flashy adverts featuring generic over compressed coldplay-a-like music and endorsements by douchebag 'artists' so it can't be professional'

I also have Reaper, and I like it a lot. For making quick sketches, it is unsurpassed, since it is, by far,m the one that launches faster. It is also the one most forgiving DAW in what concerns plug-ins (plug-ins that crash other DAWs usually can be "digested" by Reaper). AND it is the one that has the best plug-in count of all.

That said, there are some idiosyncrasies in Reaper that simply annoying me. The fact that any track can have any data (something that's pointed as an advantage by many) isn't, IMO. I like that tracks are specialized.

I also would like to have a better and more friendly way to define routing in each track, without having to call a special window to do that (although I like that window exists).

And several other things, like some specialized tools for MIDI editing that both DP and Cubase have, and Reaper don't (although they could be built through scripts, I guess).

[koolkeys]

Yeah, silly you. Back out of a discussion and insult the community you are taking part in. do_androids_dream FTW!

I didn't realise you were so sensitive.. KVR is certainly an anomaly in music forum land. I read things here that I can find nowhere else

Sensitive? Yeah, not quite. I'm just laughing at the terrible fallacy of your argument.

A professional can use any tool. But that doesn't make it a professional tool.

Why not?

Well, considering context of statement is important here, I'll let you figure that one out.

No matter how you do, somebody will disagree with you. I would define a professional tool as one that was built to meet the needs of those making a living in the profession. By that definition, everything can be considered professional.

So.. you're contradicting yourself?

Nope. But comprehension of context is obviously not your strong suit. I'm beginning to think you may need some help with this.

Aren't you the guy that used to make big rants on the Reaper forum?

If you mean, the Reaper license holder who decided he didn't care about licking the toes of the developers and long-time forum members but instead chose to be honest about Reaper being highly flawed......then yes, that was me. Or maybe it wasn't. I really don't know or particularly care.

Brent

[koolkeys]

I get extremely tired of the assertion that Reaper isn't 'professional' - that's the main reason I'm posting here.

I didn't realize you were so sensitive.....

I think what a lot of people mean by that is - 'Reaper doesn't have flashy adverts featuring generic over compressed coldplay-a-like music and endorsements by douchebag 'artists' so it can't be professional'

Nope, but you could go back and read in context. I certainly didn't say Reaper wasn't a professional tool (in fact, I said the opposite, you should probably learn the meaning of context). But it is not designed for the things DP is designed for, and IMO is not built for those types of professionals.

Sorry if that offends you. I know it comes as a shock that Reaper isn't actually the BEST host for everything, but I'll try to be gentle next time so your ego flower doesn't get further injured.

I guess if KVR is such a terrible place, you shouldn't care so much about what people here think about your "professional" tool. But it seems you strive on KVR acceptance of your choice, or you wouldn't be so darn defensive about it. But then again, you are by far not the first Reaper user to slag on KVR despite being a part of it, just because people didn't bow down. And you won't be the last.

Brent

[Robert Randolph]

Why does every thread about a host that isn't Reaper have to turn in to a Reaper thread?

[Hink]

Why does every thread about a host that isn't Reaper have to turn in to a Reaper thread?

woggle did indeed start out the first post talking about why he wont be using Reaper, but you're right and let's try and keep this on topic

[do_androids_dream]

Hi, I have pretty much given up on Reaper and am looking for a more professional product..

@ Robert Randolph.. Because, in this case, of the quote above. It's become a kind of parrot phrase around here - ironically usually said by folks who aren't professionals in the field. In fact, I would say it's arguably the MOST professional DAW for many reasons to do with stability and backward compatibility amongst other things. As a professional I can actually rely upon reaper more-so than any other DAW. Updates almost never break anything - if they do it's fixed within days, even hours sometimes. It just gets very tiresome this ridiculous assertion that it's somehow not professional.

[woggle]

Why does every thread about a host that isn't Reaper have to turn in to a Reaper thread?

woggle did indeed start out the first post talking about why he wont be using Reaper, but you're right and let's try and keep this on topic

I placed my query in context in part trying to fend off the inevitable - "what you really need is Reaper" responses that appear almost everytime, everywhere as Robert mentions. Failed miserably obviously. Defensive attacks by Reaper fans are tedious - although from a social psych point of view they have some interest.



( I also never said Reaper wasn't "professional", I said I was looking for something "more" professional. As far as understanding the response it is important to notice the consistent way in which statements are upgraded from comments to slights to insults to attacks by the fans so that they can make a public display of their affiliation and fealty)

[Hink]

Why does every thread about a host that isn't Reaper have to turn in to a Reaper thread?

woggle did indeed start out the first post talking about why he wont be using Reaper, but you're right and let's try and keep this on topic

I placed my query in context in part trying to fend off the inevitable - "what you really need is Reaper" responses that appear almost everytime, everywhere as Robert mentions. Failed miserably obviously. Defensive attacks by Reaper fans are tedious - although from a social psych point of view they have some interest.



( I also never said Reaper wasn't "professional", I said I was looking for something "more" professional. As far as understanding the response it is important to notice the consistent way in which statements are upgraded from comments to slights to insults to attacks by the fans so that they can make a public display of their affiliation and fealty)

got it