Latest News: Bitwig updates Bitwig Studio to v5.1
Dub-style feedback effects
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 29 posts since 8 Aug, 2015
Hello people
I was experimenting with the Feedback FX part of the Delay devices, and the Tank part of the Reverb device today.. I was trying to get the same kind of effects you can get by making feedback loops with a mixer, or sending sends to sends like in other DAWs.
I like the way it's been implemented in Bitwig.. but there is no explanation of whats actually going on in either the manual or the self-documenting tips that pop up. So if you want to get a nice feedbacky sound.. is it always necessary to put another time-based effect into the Tank or FB Fx slots? It makes sense that you would, beacause that's how the build-up of sound happens? Right?!?
From playing with it today, I wasn't super happy or impressed with many of the sounds I generated.. I put all kinds of effects in the Tank and FB Fx.. do you use this functionality? and what kind of effects have you found give you nice sounds?
Any and all thoughts on the topic appreciated
Peace
I was experimenting with the Feedback FX part of the Delay devices, and the Tank part of the Reverb device today.. I was trying to get the same kind of effects you can get by making feedback loops with a mixer, or sending sends to sends like in other DAWs.
I like the way it's been implemented in Bitwig.. but there is no explanation of whats actually going on in either the manual or the self-documenting tips that pop up. So if you want to get a nice feedbacky sound.. is it always necessary to put another time-based effect into the Tank or FB Fx slots? It makes sense that you would, beacause that's how the build-up of sound happens? Right?!?
From playing with it today, I wasn't super happy or impressed with many of the sounds I generated.. I put all kinds of effects in the Tank and FB Fx.. do you use this functionality? and what kind of effects have you found give you nice sounds?
Any and all thoughts on the topic appreciated
Peace
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- KVRian
- 1222 posts since 2 Dec, 2008 from Finland
Just a Tool will do, raise the gain and it will start going into insane territory. It's the equivalent of feeding a send back to itself on a real mixer, that is, it can break your speakers. Resonant filters are cool too.
A cool trick is having a synced LFO MOD or Step MOD modulating the volume of the Tool -- it starts feeding back and then kills it, feeds back and kills it.. kinda of like rhythmically adjusting the feedback or turning the auxiliary send on a mixer's effect return channel, but consistently, which is difficult to do on a real mixer. Using one of the LFOs to modulate the other in the modulator makes it easy to create various rhythms. Basically it's a synced tremolo in the feedback chain.
Using a Audio MOD (and Audio Receiver or the Audio MOD's input list) makes it possible to let the feedback grow or die based on when a musical part kicks in, ie. while using the same delay on a number of channels, a snare, a skank (when talking of reggae/dub) or whatever affects the feedback amount. Just modulating based on what comes directly to the Audio MOD is also kinda a neat.
Bitwig's delays are absolutely brilliant because of the feedback fx slot.
A cool trick is having a synced LFO MOD or Step MOD modulating the volume of the Tool -- it starts feeding back and then kills it, feeds back and kills it.. kinda of like rhythmically adjusting the feedback or turning the auxiliary send on a mixer's effect return channel, but consistently, which is difficult to do on a real mixer. Using one of the LFOs to modulate the other in the modulator makes it easy to create various rhythms. Basically it's a synced tremolo in the feedback chain.
Using a Audio MOD (and Audio Receiver or the Audio MOD's input list) makes it possible to let the feedback grow or die based on when a musical part kicks in, ie. while using the same delay on a number of channels, a snare, a skank (when talking of reggae/dub) or whatever affects the feedback amount. Just modulating based on what comes directly to the Audio MOD is also kinda a neat.
Bitwig's delays are absolutely brilliant because of the feedback fx slot.
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- KVRian
- 818 posts since 18 Oct, 2014
Filtering the feedback path is important here.
Insert an eq-5, set up a silly curve. Now modulate the shift knob with a slow lfo.
You can also try what ras.s described on the amount control.
To keep things from growing out of hand add a compressor, increases the sweet spot for the feedback control as well.
Insert an eq-5, set up a silly curve. Now modulate the shift knob with a slow lfo.
You can also try what ras.s described on the amount control.
To keep things from growing out of hand add a compressor, increases the sweet spot for the feedback control as well.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 29 posts since 8 Aug, 2015
These are exactly the kind of tips I was looking for!
I didn't go so simple as to just increase the gain, I think part of me thought it had to be more complicated than that. But you're so right! I did have a good time putting a few frequency shifters in the tank, it made the feedback go all over the place in very nice ways. But in retrospect of course it makes so much sense that gain is the most important piece of the puzzle.
I also got some nice sounds by putting a filter inside the feedback slot, and using an audio mod (not on envelope follower) to do some filter frequency fm inside it. And some audio rate panning too.
Anyone else?? Hit me with feedback alchemy!
I didn't go so simple as to just increase the gain, I think part of me thought it had to be more complicated than that. But you're so right! I did have a good time putting a few frequency shifters in the tank, it made the feedback go all over the place in very nice ways. But in retrospect of course it makes so much sense that gain is the most important piece of the puzzle.
I also got some nice sounds by putting a filter inside the feedback slot, and using an audio mod (not on envelope follower) to do some filter frequency fm inside it. And some audio rate panning too.
Anyone else?? Hit me with feedback alchemy!
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- KVRian
- 1222 posts since 2 Dec, 2008 from Finland
Oh, and the Tool's Width knob is also great in the feedback path, makes stuff gradually wider or narrower.
And the bit reducer, on the other hand ...
Of course not forgetting that everything with a frequency control are suitable targets for Note MODs to play melodies ...
:P
And the bit reducer, on the other hand ...
Of course not forgetting that everything with a frequency control are suitable targets for Note MODs to play melodies ...
:P
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- KVRian
- 818 posts since 18 Oct, 2014
You can use the eq-5 as a creative filter, check this out:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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- KVRist
- 487 posts since 19 Jan, 2003
Basically anything can work if you keep the wet/dry mix of whatever is in the feedback loop (not the delay itself) under control. I put ValhallaUberMod in there a lot, also saturation plugins like the Slate VCC stuff or lately, the Sie-Q that was free from soundtoys recently. I put delays inside the delays sometimes. Frequency shifters are cool, I also put Little Alterboy in there from time to time.
Sometimes for drums I will make a really simple one or two hit drum pattern and then use delays with EQs and Transient Control in the feedback loop to make different patterns while adding variety to the sound of the hits. Also handy to put the whole delay into a step mod and use that to control the feedback amount, for example, with this kind of thing.
But really try anything you like, and if it sounds like it's doing too much, just back the wet/dry mix down to a point where it's not so overwhelming and has more time to build up in layers. If you don't have a wet/dry mix in the plugin you can easily add one with a Chain container. Bitwig lets you easily experiment with this stuff so take advantage and just try anything that comes to mind.
Sometimes for drums I will make a really simple one or two hit drum pattern and then use delays with EQs and Transient Control in the feedback loop to make different patterns while adding variety to the sound of the hits. Also handy to put the whole delay into a step mod and use that to control the feedback amount, for example, with this kind of thing.
But really try anything you like, and if it sounds like it's doing too much, just back the wet/dry mix down to a point where it's not so overwhelming and has more time to build up in layers. If you don't have a wet/dry mix in the plugin you can easily add one with a Chain container. Bitwig lets you easily experiment with this stuff so take advantage and just try anything that comes to mind.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 29 posts since 8 Aug, 2015
Thanks everyone for the great responses.
I am gonna try all this stuff today, and we will see what goes down. I think I will also try setting up the feedback effects as sends, so I can send multiple tracks to them. If I make an incredible device rack I'll share it here.
One other question -- am I right in thinking that the "Buildup" control in the Reverb device is akin to a "feedback" control in a delay device? Does the sound go around the tank by using this control? Might experiment with some very short reverb times with high Buildup, too.
I am gonna try all this stuff today, and we will see what goes down. I think I will also try setting up the feedback effects as sends, so I can send multiple tracks to them. If I make an incredible device rack I'll share it here.
One other question -- am I right in thinking that the "Buildup" control in the Reverb device is akin to a "feedback" control in a delay device? Does the sound go around the tank by using this control? Might experiment with some very short reverb times with high Buildup, too.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 29 posts since 8 Aug, 2015
Just tried that, it's magic. Thank you very much!Tearing Riots wrote:You can use the eq-5 as a creative filter, check this out:
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- KVRian
- 818 posts since 18 Oct, 2014
Another thing to add is that with long feedback you don´t want to send audio to the delay´s input all the time. Putting the delay wet only on a fx track so you can automate the sends makes sense, another way is to put it in a fx layer like this:
Drawing up in the step mod sends audio into the delay, down attenuates the dry audio output.You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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- KVRian
- 1153 posts since 11 Aug, 2004 from Breuillet, France
I was thinking of that kind of stuff when I was designing Spaceship Delay for the KVR DC. I do use the attack knob all the time to trigger the delay effect + feedback only at specific times without any automation. I just play guitar with other effects like usual, then I attack hard the strings at specific times, the feedback mayhem appears then diseappears
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- KVRian
- 818 posts since 18 Oct, 2014
Glad you like them
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- KVRian
- 1107 posts since 30 Jun, 2015
No explination?
Well tank fx is the reverb tail. You basically put effects on it without effecting early reflection or dry signal while wet fx is for entire reverb but not dry sound.
Feedback fx is that you will have the delayed signal that feedsback get fx. For each time it will get more and more since you feed precious signal that then goes back in and gets more applied feedback and then it loops until signal dies away. Simple and easy.
Well tank fx is the reverb tail. You basically put effects on it without effecting early reflection or dry signal while wet fx is for entire reverb but not dry sound.
Feedback fx is that you will have the delayed signal that feedsback get fx. For each time it will get more and more since you feed precious signal that then goes back in and gets more applied feedback and then it loops until signal dies away. Simple and easy.
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- KVRist
- 65 posts since 2 Feb, 2009
I've been wondering something. Do any of Bitwig's delay devices allow for non-pitched time modulation, like Live's cross mode on it's simple and ping pong delays? It would imagine all these routing and modulation options would be insane combined with such an effect...