Tonal vs Noise

[fhunktion]

in max for live you can get the ircam tools - they allow you to balance between noise / sinusoidal components of a sound

[Nspace]

@Xcomposer
Regarding IRCAM TS, let me correct myself, it was too late last night when I posted about it.
It was released for Mac, they promised a PC version. It took them many months (over the promised date) to actually release it. They (DontCrack's Nick, their official distributor) announced the VST/AU version for the 2015's third term. Hasn't arrived yet.
Instead IRCAM released a different Plugin The Snail, which had an update days ago.
One may infere that IRCAM's release schedule is about one update (or release) each year. Hence, we will have TS's plugin version released this 2016, just don't count it being the sooner, they develop just the opposite as MELDA; very slowly and with continuously delayed promised dates.
In their defense their software is very creative and unique, plus once a year or two it is heavily discounted (costing up to a third its MSRP), so if you have patience, save for them.

///Now that I am on this, one may think that either IRCAM's The Snail and Photosounder's Spiral are vey similar in that both strive to find a visual way for users to discern in the Spectral view. I did try a while ago to seed the conversation at Photosounder's forum about the possible linkages of the then recently released Spiral and their own Spectral editor and it did result in a couple of possible paths being pointed at, but not much direct interest at that particular forum.
However The Snail seems to be evolving into a way for us users precisely to get assistance in the kind of tasks this thread suggests...
I am attentive. Though -of course- I'll be delighted to see Vojtech exploring such avenues. I know, I know full plate already. Keeping the conversation evolving does not harm anybody, correct?

[vectorwarrior]

Bringing this thread back from the dead!

So the KVR developer challenge 2016 just released the entries to the public and one of the entries caught my eye. It's a plugin that does exactly what I was asking for in this thread:

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/voiceo ... ndevstudio

I've only just started playing with it, but one of the interesting things I've tried so far is splitting the noise and tonal components apart and applying a pitch shift only to the tonal signal then mixing them back together. It works surprisingly well as it (in the case of a pitch down) retains the high frequency elements of the noise signal so you get a nice pitch down effect without losing the clarity and bite of the noise elements. For a pitch up it's similar in that you retain some definition in the highs that usual gets smeared or lost somehow.

I know vojtech is getting slammed with feature requests right now and I feel bad for him. But if there was more time in the world, this noise/tonal shift would be an awesome part of the crossover feature (like Panorama, M/S and Level became) allowing you to do things like:

-Improved pitch shifting/modification (as explained above) or extreme creative uses using MTransformer
-Reverberate only the tonal elements so the noise doesn't drown the reverb (could be useful for TurboReverb!!!), I believe this is partly how Adaptiverb works
-Increase the transients on the noise signal of drums to give them extra snap without effecting the resonance
-Autotune only tonal elements of vocals for cleaner results
-Saturate only the tonal sounds for more controlled output
-EQ noise and tonal separately for a total change in how instruments sound
-Frequency shift the noise elements only, usually frequency shifting has limited uses because it messes up tonal sounds... but here you wouldn't have to worry about it (same with ring modulation)
-Stereo process the tonal/noise elements differently for more stereo control and opportunities for pseudo-stereo effects
-Improved cleaner vocoding/morphing by only processing the tonal and leaving the noise element to pass through clean

Hey, if Melda can't do this I'll just use this plugin to try out these effects, but I know they'd do a better job of it. For example this plugin doesn't allow different spectral settings, i think it's set at around 2048.

Anyone else into this?

Thanks!

[XComposer]

Yes, I, too, spotted that particular plugin and grabbed it immediately. I use the tonal/noise separation for different purposes (not for pitch shifting; rather to produce a pool of many new sounds derived from the features contained in the original sample), but I absolutely agree on the fact that an efficient plug-in performing this kind of separation would be extremely useful (and would fill a place in the market which is still not very much covered).

Meanwhile, I bought IRCAM Trax 3 (the Flux plug-in version) and I am very happy with it: it is very precise in separating the noise component, the tonal component and (optionally) the transient component and all the options and thresholds can be controlled by the user.

[jmg8]

COMPLETELY AGREE! this would be amazing as another mode for the crossover. Almost all melda plugins would take advantage of processing noise/tonal separately.
Some nice examples vectorwarrior.

[pone]

Really? This seems trivial to do in mxxx. The biggest problem is actually the pitch detection. (outside of your general linear phase problems) Or did i misunderstand something?

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A question to Vojtech, what exactly happens when melda spectral plugins are running at a higher sample rate, is it doing something special or just works as is?

EDIT: OK, I reread the thread, you want it to NOT use pitch detection and work on everything, well maybe you could keep the detector but narrow its band and use a multiband set of these then. If you have the time you can of course manually follow the pitch with automation or midi notes when possible.

[vectorwarrior]

Yeah, I want to separate noise from tonal, sinusoidal sounds. This has nothing to do with pitch detection in a chromatic scale sense. I would as a sound designer so 99% of the audio I work with isn't on a standard chromatic scale... E.g. Speech

I believe the way other tools do this is by analysing spectral blocks and seeing what frequencies are held for the duration of the block. Or something like that. There's no way to do that currently in melda plugins, the closest would be noise reduction in spectral dynamics, but I'm specifically talking about splitting the sound in to the two parts rather than just reducing the noise.

[pone]

But the partials in a human voice are harmonic, so the preset I have there should mostly work. For splitting the sound, have the preset remove the harmonic partials extracted from the original signal, then process that signal separately.

Edit: I should sleep Edit2: definitely Edit: attempt number 3

[Jedinhopy]

For a pitch up it's similar in that you retain some definition in the highs that usual gets smeared or lost somehow.

Apply highpass filtering and lowpass filtering on the tonals once they has been pitchshifted to avoid increasing bass or treble too much.

And if you want the midrange of the tonals to be more pronounced.
Cut the midrange of the noise components.

[MeldaProduction]

Huh, what a conversation here . Well, I cannot promise anything, but I'll check one day

[vectorwarrior]

Here's a plugin that got released today that takes this approach to eq. There's a YouTube vid that quickly demos a small section of tonal verses noise elements on a guitar. They managed to get a very clean spilt between the two.

http://www.sonible.com/entropyeq/

Hopefully this helps show some of the potential I was talking about.

[steve2KVR]

...interesting...but a 5 day trial? ...they must think they're apple! ...me?...I'll wait'll till my ice skates are sharpened by the crew over at GS b4 jumping at that offer ...I know, it's just me ...but really .../s~

[XComposer]

Yes, and another demonstration is on this video from 2:30 onwards. It regards the software Ircam TS (but also Ircam Trax, which I have, and the Pitch Tech plugins, which I mentioned before, work in a similar way).
Please go to 2:30 on this video to see the relevant part.
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=OXhyqqww_NA

[vectorwarrior]

Looks like Evantide is releasing a plugin that does this... though they've called it 'tonal' and 'transient'... probably because that's one application of it... although I prefer my terminology as it isn't just used to detect transients.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI-X-DdXZAg

You can clearly hear it's a spectral detection and I suspect Melda's tech is better in this regard.

I'm still holding out hope that Vojtech will add this tonal/noise mode to the crossover feature of Melda plugins... hence the bump. Sorry for the spam

[DPhil]

Indeed I was searching for a plugin like this too. Thank you! The Eventide one seems like a no brainer. Can't wait to buy it.