Vengeance Avenger - First Impressions and Wishlist
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- KVRAF
- 11151 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales
Lets just ignore the trolls and concentrate on the positives and enjoy using this immense workstation. Given its a brand new instrument that has just been released there will be lots of areas that it can be improved, tweaked and built on, I for one am enjoying what is already there (and still discovering it) but I think its a good idea to post a wish list. It sounds really good, that's obvious; I have not heard anyone credible dispute this. Over time it will only sound better, and as more people learn to exploit its full potential, I am sure we will hear some amazing presents (there are actually some amazing presents already, but also quite a lot of basic filler)
All suggestions so far seem reasonable and probably implementable, mine is even simpler- some way to flag favourites or just add the word favourite to the tag list!
I think the shaper is really interesting, still learning that one (may actually have to look at the manual!
) but it is intuitive enough to change the basic sounds (I just want to understand more)
There are a ton of Filter options, still trying them all, but enough to do just about anything- different filters to each oscillator type is insanely flexible (with a master filter option) and the fx are top not and really easy to modulate with he sounds. I LOVE the big interface- all on one page, logical layout but really flexible; hardware midi mapping super easy,I like that way of working. I guess if people have problems with the GUI size (I could be being selfish as I have a big monitor!) the Dev could rearrange to do a hide keyboard option?
This is a real 'instrument', sure, it borrows a lot from other synths, but it was smart enough to borrow a lot of the best bits. I love how easy it is to layer and make really interesting transitions and stacks (I used to love doing that with Kore, great song starters if you can almost play it live!)
All suggestions so far seem reasonable and probably implementable, mine is even simpler- some way to flag favourites or just add the word favourite to the tag list!
I think the shaper is really interesting, still learning that one (may actually have to look at the manual!
) but it is intuitive enough to change the basic sounds (I just want to understand more)
There are a ton of Filter options, still trying them all, but enough to do just about anything- different filters to each oscillator type is insanely flexible (with a master filter option) and the fx are top not and really easy to modulate with he sounds. I LOVE the big interface- all on one page, logical layout but really flexible; hardware midi mapping super easy,I like that way of working. I guess if people have problems with the GUI size (I could be being selfish as I have a big monitor!) the Dev could rearrange to do a hide keyboard option?
This is a real 'instrument', sure, it borrows a lot from other synths, but it was smart enough to borrow a lot of the best bits. I love how easy it is to layer and make really interesting transitions and stacks (I used to love doing that with Kore, great song starters if you can almost play it live!)
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!
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- KVRAF
- 3959 posts since 10 Sep, 2010 from A shit hole (Ireland).
I think that's fair enough to say... I mean, if you already had say Serum, Dune II or Falcon, etc. Then you might not really need a synth like this.chk071 wrote:The sound isn't bad, but, i feel like it doesn't offer a lot over other synths out there, regarding the sound. The oscillators and waveforms sound good, but, the filters could be better.
Personally, I really like its sound and think its general Oscs sound great. Someone mentioned Serum saying it sounded 'neutral' (I still think it sounds fat!) . So I don't quite agree with his statment, but it's a classic synth none-the-less.
Where Avenger does outshine the others (IMO) is having such a huge feature set crammed into a very streamlined, intuitive and easy to use GUI. For sheer usability, it's one of the best I've ever used (like Serum or Tone2).
However, I would concede that, if you don't want those extra features then it might be overkill as you said. But for me, as I think it's a joy to use, I find myself going all out and experimenting with everything.
Regarding the filters. I think they are pretty good. Are they the best out there, probably not, but I think they work well. That said, most synths, even the better ones, their filter's are nothing amazing. With the exception of U-he, Tone2 and Xils. I also love Serum's actually. Finding good vst filters is one of the most difficult unfortunately.
It's also early days for Avenger, so it will be interesting to see where it goes over the next 6 months or so.
I will take the Lord's name in vain, whenever I want. Hail Satan! And his little goblins too.
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- KVRAF
- 3959 posts since 10 Sep, 2010 from A shit hole (Ireland).
The shaper is crazy! I'm only still learning it too.SLiC wrote: I think the shaper is really interesting, still learning that one (may actually have to look at the manual!
) but it is intuitive enough to change the basic sounds (I just want to understand more)
And it changes the sound in a good way. It's class the way you can peak different harmonics and then split the frequencies as well. Modulating these peaks would bring you some very interesting basslines.
I will take the Lord's name in vain, whenever I want. Hail Satan! And his little goblins too.
- KVRAF
- 3053 posts since 25 Apr, 2011
Lol..ask URS.chk071 wrote:And that one is ancient. Come on devs, i don't think designing filters is such a black art.wagtunes wrote: Want to hear a good filter? Grab a hold of Korg's MS-20 from the Legacy Collection.
To die for.
Problem is, awesome filters are usually cpu eaters. Especially when going polyphonic. The filters on Avenger aren't Repro1's, but they are good enough for poly work, imho. This synth really is made for all kinds of stuff, not only mono- or duophonic stuff.
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- KVRist
- 184 posts since 30 Jan, 2016
Thank you for support me. I am not trolling. I installed Avenger and the first test I ever made was a raw sawsound and then play with filter. The saw sounds dirty and poor, not so clean and fat like in serum, icarus, RAPID or other new synth out there. I was very disappointed and tried a lot to build a nice sound from scratch. After an hour I gave up and deinstalled Avenger. If the sound were good, I had bought this plugin. But the soundengine is not good in my opinion.zvenx wrote:Why is Taurus opinion considered trolling? Surely you cant imagine the sound of Avenger is for everyone. Someone said it sounds Fat and Warm, and I was once again reminded how as our humans our taste differ. None necessarily right and wrong, just different. I too tried Avenger and neither Fat or warm came into mind for me. Just my taste. I am not more right or wrong that someone who considered it fat and warm. I like Serum for instance because for me it is neither Fat or Warn, making it different from my usual palate.
Rsp
Why should this be trolling?
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- KVRAF
- 35405 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
Fair enough. But, as i wrote, i don't think good filters HAVE to be expensive. Look at Charlatan, good sounding filters, self-oscillating, nice characteristic, even zdf, and they don't eat much CPU. With TAL-Noisemaker, the same thing. I guess, it's always a matter of how many non-linearities you bring in, or generally, how complex you model the filter. For me, filters don't have to scream, and distort like mad per default. You can always put a drive section in the filter to accomplish that.exmatproton wrote:Lol..ask URS.chk071 wrote:And that one is ancient. Come on devs, i don't think designing filters is such a black art.wagtunes wrote: Want to hear a good filter? Grab a hold of Korg's MS-20 from the Legacy Collection.
To die for.
Problem is, awesome filters are usually cpu eaters. Especially when going polyphonic. The filters on Avenger aren't Repro1's, but they are good enough for poly work, imho. This synth really is made for all kinds of stuff, not only mono- or duophonic stuff.
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- KVRAF
- 3959 posts since 10 Sep, 2010 from A shit hole (Ireland).
Rapid... Rapid... Rapid...Taurus wrote: Why should this be trolling?
No agenda there.Taurus wrote:Rapid = 10 points
Avenger = 3 points
Predator2 = 4 points
Avenger and Predator2 are the flop synths 2016
I will take the Lord's name in vain, whenever I want. Hail Satan! And his little goblins too.
- KVRAF
- 3053 posts since 25 Apr, 2011
I agree. But still, this thing is quite heavy already. I'd rather have some less expensive filters in such a workhorse.chk071 wrote:Fair enough. But, as i wrote, i don't think good filters HAVE to be expensive. Look at Charlatan, good sounding filters, self-oscillating, nice characteristic, even zdf, and they don't eat much CPU. With TAL-Noisemaker, the same thing. I guess, it's always a matter of how many non-linearities you bring in, or generally, how complex you model the filter. For me, filters don't have to scream, and distort like mad per default. You can always put a drive section in the filter to accomplish that.exmatproton wrote:Lol..ask URS.chk071 wrote:And that one is ancient. Come on devs, i don't think designing filters is such a black art.wagtunes wrote: Want to hear a good filter? Grab a hold of Korg's MS-20 from the Legacy Collection.
To die for.
Problem is, awesome filters are usually cpu eaters. Especially when going polyphonic. The filters on Avenger aren't Repro1's, but they are good enough for poly work, imho. This synth really is made for all kinds of stuff, not only mono- or duophonic stuff.
You name very basic and simple plugins. This Avenger one is way more complex, which asks more cpu consumption. Again, the filters are good enough for this particular synth. It is no moog emu for instance.
But yeah, it could be some simple coding as well. And in that case, they could be better, without hurting cpu usage. Who knows....
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- KVRAF
- 11151 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales
Saying 'the sound is bad' as a fact as you did in your original post is trolling in my opinion. I think almost everyone disagrees with you based on the 100's of posts I have read, but you are still welcome to an opinion, just express it as an opinion.Taurus wrote:Thank you for support me. I am not trolling. I installed Avenger and the first test I ever made was a raw sawsound and then play with filter. The saw sounds dirty and poor, not so clean and fat like in serum, icarus, RAPID or other new synth out there. I was very disappointed and tried a lot to build a nice sound from scratch. After an hour I gave up and deinstalled Avenger. If the sound were good, I had bought this plugin. But the soundengine is not good in my opinion.zvenx wrote:Why is Taurus opinion considered trolling? Surely you cant imagine the sound of Avenger is for everyone. Someone said it sounds Fat and Warm, and I was once again reminded how as our humans our taste differ. None necessarily right and wrong, just different. I too tried Avenger and neither Fat or warm came into mind for me. Just my taste. I am not more right or wrong that someone who considered it fat and warm. I like Serum for instance because for me it is neither Fat or Warn, making it different from my usual palate.
Rsp
Why should this be trolling?
Personally, I tried Rapid and really didn't like it, however, I have no inclination to go to the Rapid thread and tell the people who have bought Rapid that I think it sounds bad as it would be adding nothing positive and it would probably just annoy a lot of users.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!
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- KVRAF
- 11151 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales
Yes, I think this is a key point. If you play 1 or 2 analogue oscillators through 1 filter it isn't going to be a Legend or Diva level of circuit modelled accuracy, that's not what it is.exmatproton wrote:I agree. But still, this thing is quite heavy already. I'd rather have some less expensive filters in such a workhorse.chk071 wrote:Fair enough. But, as i wrote, i don't think good filters HAVE to be expensive. Look at Charlatan, good sounding filters, self-oscillating, nice characteristic, even zdf, and they don't eat much CPU. With TAL-Noisemaker, the same thing. I guess, it's always a matter of how many non-linearities you bring in, or generally, how complex you model the filter. For me, filters don't have to scream, and distort like mad per default. You can always put a drive section in the filter to accomplish that.exmatproton wrote:Lol..ask URS.chk071 wrote:And that one is ancient. Come on devs, i don't think designing filters is such a black art.wagtunes wrote: Want to hear a good filter? Grab a hold of Korg's MS-20 from the Legacy Collection.
To die for.
Problem is, awesome filters are usually cpu eaters. Especially when going polyphonic. The filters on Avenger aren't Repro1's, but they are good enough for poly work, imho. This synth really is made for all kinds of stuff, not only mono- or duophonic stuff.
You name very basic and simple plugins. This Avenger one is way more complex, which asks more cpu consumption. Again, the filters are good enough for this particular synth. It is no moog emu for instance.
But yeah, it could be some simple coding as well. And in that case, they could be better, without hurting cpu usage. Who knows....
Route 8 stacked oscillators through 4 different filter types (of the 37), 4 different shaper modules and a final output filter and you have what APS is about...For example, I am a big fan (and user) of Serum this is really 4 Serums in one instrument and the interplay between the oscillators means the sounds couldn't be achieved with 4 instances of Serum (if it could, I probably wouldn't have bought it!)
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!
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- KVRAF
- 5179 posts since 16 Nov, 2014
Beside the few GPU issues and much cpu usage it is an awesome synth.
It´s not about RAW power but it offers a lot to create some wonderful rythmic stuff.
The modulation envelopes and it´s controls are belongs to the best for me yet i found in a synth.
My little wishlist would be that i can modulate the volume circles in the sample stacker so that i could "fake" more easy a kind of vector synthesis or wave sequencing.
Also i would like slower (and faster) LFO´s like in Dune 2.
OSC as modulator would be great too.
It´s not about RAW power but it offers a lot to create some wonderful rythmic stuff.
The modulation envelopes and it´s controls are belongs to the best for me yet i found in a synth.
My little wishlist would be that i can modulate the volume circles in the sample stacker so that i could "fake" more easy a kind of vector synthesis or wave sequencing.
Also i would like slower (and faster) LFO´s like in Dune 2.
OSC as modulator would be great too.
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- KVRist
- 395 posts since 17 Mar, 2012 from Montreal
Tried the demo for a full day and i'm underwhelmed, not by the layout, nor the effects, nor the routing possibilities, but by that one thing that is my most obvious priority, the sound. It sounds like plastic to me, I'm a real snob when it comes to the sound of a synth and this was an easy decision for me not to buy it.
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- KVRAF
- 35405 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
They may be simple plugins, but Charlatan for example allows for 7-voice unison with both oscillators, and still it has a tiny CPU footprint. I don't think it's a problem to implement a filter of that quality (it's not even the best sounding ever heard, but, still a very nice filter, and would be more than appropriate for such a synth) in a more sophisticated architecture, and even use 2, or more filters of that kind. The processing power is there now IMO.SLiC wrote:Yes, I think this is a key point. If you play 1 or 2 analogue oscillators through 1 filter it isn't going to be a Legend or Diva level of circuit modelled accuracy, that's not what it is.exmatproton wrote:I agree. But still, this thing is quite heavy already. I'd rather have some less expensive filters in such a workhorse.chk071 wrote:Fair enough. But, as i wrote, i don't think good filters HAVE to be expensive. Look at Charlatan, good sounding filters, self-oscillating, nice characteristic, even zdf, and they don't eat much CPU. With TAL-Noisemaker, the same thing. I guess, it's always a matter of how many non-linearities you bring in, or generally, how complex you model the filter. For me, filters don't have to scream, and distort like mad per default. You can always put a drive section in the filter to accomplish that.exmatproton wrote:Lol..ask URS.chk071 wrote:And that one is ancient. Come on devs, i don't think designing filters is such a black art.wagtunes wrote: Want to hear a good filter? Grab a hold of Korg's MS-20 from the Legacy Collection.
To die for.
Problem is, awesome filters are usually cpu eaters. Especially when going polyphonic. The filters on Avenger aren't Repro1's, but they are good enough for poly work, imho. This synth really is made for all kinds of stuff, not only mono- or duophonic stuff.
You name very basic and simple plugins. This Avenger one is way more complex, which asks more cpu consumption. Again, the filters are good enough for this particular synth. It is no moog emu for instance.
But yeah, it could be some simple coding as well. And in that case, they could be better, without hurting cpu usage. Who knows....
Route 8 stacked oscillators through 4 different filter types (of the 37), 4 different shaper modules and a final output filter and you have what APS is about...For example, I am a big fan (and user) of Serum this is really 4 Serums in one instrument and the interplay between the oscillators means the sounds couldn't be achieved with 4 instances of Serum (if it could, I probably wouldn't have bought it!)
- KVRAF
- 3053 posts since 25 Apr, 2011
i dunno man...Raddler1 wrote:Tried the demo for a full day and i'm underwhelmed, not by the layout, nor the effects, nor the routing possibilities, but by that one thing that is my most obvious priority, the sound. It sounds like plastic to me, I'm a real snob when it comes to the sound of a synth and this was an easy decision for me not to buy it.
I am having a blast. Here's 1 instance
https://soundcloud.com/exmatproton/aven ... -1/s-gITyf