Calling All Guitar Players - Real Guitar VS Vir 2

[wagtunes]

Point is, just because you find the keyswitching unintuitive doesn't mean I will.

Understandable.

It's just that Musiclab's "engine" (brain, however you want to call it) is so simple to setup, customize and use. What you need keyswitches for in other tools, is built in with the brain "automatically" in Musiclab.

Also... the chord/bass&chord/bass&pick mode is just outstanding...


Once more... test the software. Maybe try RealGuitar Acoustic and RealLPC... The acoustic guitars have a different "brain" than the Electric Guitars (keyswitch wise)... but this should give you a nice insight on what this thing can do.

Also... if you're into Djent'y stuff, there are audio demos with RealLPC on Youtube that show exactly that (first three videos here. The official demo videos by the devs are also still online.



I can't add much more to the discussion other than "try it, find the right guitar pedal/amp/cabinet chain, have fun".

So in other words, the keyswitching, for lack of a better word, is actually controlled by the way you play via things like velocity, legato technique, mod wheel and pitch bend. Or, more geared to real time playing than programming.

If that is indeed the case, that would be wonderful if I had the chops that I had 40 years ago. I don't. And to do the things that I want to do with a guitar, the things I hear in my head, there is no way I play those things real time. So I would either have to play at half or even quarter tempo, which has always been a pain for me to do, or program everything anyway. So sure, for somebody who can fly his hands across the keyboard, Music Labs is probably the perfect solution. But for somebody like me, the real time playing aspect is lost.

And all that aside, there's still the issue of $100 cost per guitar versus $57 cost per guitar. As I am not made out of money, I need to save where I can.

Bottom Line: Whatever benefits you feel Music Labs gives me over Vir 2, I can't justify the extra cost. There just isn't the night and day difference, such as with MODO Bass as opposed to every other bass out there, that I need to justify going "Okay, yeah, I'll pay $600 for 6 guitars" when I can get more than double that for slightly more money. On the value scale, forgetting everything else, it's not even close. And it's not like we're talking about Vir 2 being a crappy sounding library. It sounds just as good as anything else I've heard, even if it is going to take me some time to learn how to use it.

In short, our priorities are different. Yours is ease of use. Mine is saving money.

[wagtunes]

I just heard back from Big Fish Audio. The Vir 2 bundle price of $649.95 is available indefinitely. So there is no rush here. I can fully research everything before I make my final decision.

[BBFG#]

I just heard back from Big Fish Audio. The Vir 2 bundle price of $649.95 is available indefinitely. So there is no rush here. I can fully research everything before I make my final decision.

Sounds about right. I do seem to remember they have a sale on that too though. Roughly $80.-$100. off I think? But you really need to watch the individual sets too as it gets the discount and leaves the bundle at the same price. Also regularly check Best Service in the same way and don't be afraid to pay in euros as sometimes it really works in our favor.

Now about the guitars them self... Both of them do have very good ones. I didn't fiddle under the hood with Vir2 that much to find out how 'finicky' they were but thought the sound presented in their presets were quite good.
Like I said though, my main search is for the six-string Rick and it was the one thing it didn't grab me in. It does have a good 12 string though. I also noticed that it worked well with the built in effects, but not so much when turning them off and adding an 'external'. While I generally find most things do an adequate to great guitar sounds for the most common guitars, even to the point of certain synths being able to nail a processed guitar on its own, I do find everything falling short of that 6-string Rick for my tastes. In the MusicLabs, regardless of everything else they offer and everything you get with the Vir2, It is the one I recommend for that sound. Although as I understand your recent posts of 'going for the one' in a Yes vein, it is probably nothing you need for that. Since you own Omni also, I might recommend you look into tweaking some of those guitars before sinking more of your wallet into anything.

[progtronic]

The bang for buck was critical for me as well, when I bought into the Vir2 stuff.

I really like to change up the instruments I use, so that every guitar.. in every song.. doesn't sound the same. I also craft each guitar tone from scratch (per song), for the same reason.

This one uses the L4 and ES335 for the rhythm guitars (all routed through Guitar Rig Pro):
https://soundcloud.com/progtronic/masquerade-collapsing

Was challenging to get Jazz guitars to work for Extreme Metal.. but I really like the buzz saw styled tones I was able to come up with. Also illustrates how versatile the sound libraries are. You can make the guitars as clean, or as dirty as you need.

[wagtunes]

The bang for buck was critical for me as well, when I bought into the Vir2 stuff.

I really like to change up the instruments I use, so that every guitar.. in every song.. doesn't sound the same. I also craft each guitar tone from scratch (per song), for the same reason.

This one uses the L4 and ES335 for the rhythm guitars (all routed through Guitar Rig Pro):
https://soundcloud.com/progtronic/masquerade-collapsing

Was challenging to get Jazz guitars to work for Extreme Metal.. but I really like the buzz saw styled tones I was able to come up with. Also illustrates how versatile the sound libraries are. You can make the guitars as clean, or as dirty as you need.

Very cool. The drums sound like they were shot out of a machine gun but I guess that was intentional. Guitars sounded great.

[b15fliptop]

This one uses the L4 and ES335 for the rhythm guitars (all routed through Guitar Rig Pro):
https://soundcloud.com/progtronic/masquerade-collapsing

Very cool! Well done.

[Compyfox]

Sorry, took me a while to get to this:

So in other words, the keyswitching, for lack of a better word, is actually controlled by the way you play via things like velocity, legato technique, mod wheel and pitch bend. Or, more geared to real time playing than programming.

Simple spoken, yes. But you can still program your material at a strict 16th quantization and merely mess with the velocity of your notes to trigger the built in keyswitches.

You have several sections:
1) Velocity Keyswitches (for example - drop below a certain range, trigger palm mutes; go above a certain range, trigger squeals or whatever)
2) Auto Keyswitches (like Hammer On/Pull off)
3) Manual Keyswitches (a huge, huge range of possibilities)
4) Modwheen and Aftertouch (for vibrato, feedback, etc)

Add to that the Humanize Engine, and imagine the possibilities.

You can fully customize your guitar, which mostly isn't possible with Kontakt or UVI based sample sets. Also Preset creation doesn't mean "overwrite the Kontakt Preset", but you can store different types of "guitaris and guitarists". Example: one super tight one, one being super sloppy, one for solo shredding, one for power chords, etc.


Really, try the engine. Don't be turned off by others saying "it sounds thin and unrealistic". The Musiclab guitars went a really, really long way. And while Kontakt samples these days (or engines like AmpleSound) might sound so much better right out of the box... the usability should be important.

At least to me it is.

Also - the RealGuitars have a MIDI Out feature that converts your chords into notes to trigger other guitar samples or VI's

If that is indeed the case, that would be wonderful if I had the chops that I had 40 years ago. I don't. And to do the things that I want to do with a guitar, the things I hear in my head, there is no way I play those things real time. So I would either have to play at half or even quarter tempo, which has always been a pain for me to do, or program everything anyway. So sure, for somebody who can fly his hands across the keyboard, Music Labs is probably the perfect solution. But for somebody like me, the real time playing aspect is lost.

Again, programming is absolutely no problem.

And all that aside, there's still the issue of $100 cost per guitar versus $57 cost per guitar. As I am not made out of money, I need to save where I can.

As mentioned, this is something I can't convince you off.

Bottom Line: Whatever benefits you feel Music Labs gives me over Vir 2, I can't justify the extra cost. There just isn't the night and day difference, such as with MODO Bass as opposed to every other bass out there, that I need to justify going "Okay, yeah, I'll pay $600 for 6 guitars" when I can get more than double that for slightly more money. On the value scale, forgetting everything else, it's not even close. And it's not like we're talking about Vir 2 being a crappy sounding library. It sounds just as good as anything else I've heard, even if it is going to take me some time to learn how to use it.

In short, our priorities are different. Yours is ease of use. Mine is saving money.

If you're after Physical Modeling, I'm fairly sure that IKM is already on the trail for Guitars as well (release might take a while though). But your best bet currently, and if you're on Windows, is XHUN AUDIO. At least for Solo work. Chord Triggering is something to be desired still...




Look, as mentioned several times, I can't convince you what to do. But all I ask for, is to at least take a look at the engine. You have so many possibilities sound wise if you understand what you can do. And as guitar player, you should now that a Les Paul can produce n-th amount of sounds just with toying around with the volume and tone dials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkGCvLstPrE


As engineer (and guitar rookie) I understand that people want different guitars for different sound (I have clients that think and work this way). But what I miss the most these days, is people just "using" their guitars efficiently - rather than setup once, hope that the amp produces something great and if not, move on to the next guitar...

In my case, if I work ITB guitar wise, I use one OD/Boost pedal (mostly TubeScreamer without any Drive), one compressor, maybe a delay, and always the same tube amp, maybe even the same cabinet/mic combo over and over. And you'd be surprised how much I can get(!) out of that simple combination (in fact, see my Mix Challenge 13 entry, and what I did out of Impact Soundworks' Shreddage X)


YMMV of course

[wagtunes]

@comfyfox

Wanted to respond so that you know that I did read your last post. In fact, you've probably given me more pertinent info that I could have possibly hoped for in starting this thread.

As Real Guitar does have a demo, something that does bother me about Vir 2 (what if it doesn't work, then what?) I am going to download it and give it a shot. Actually, I'm going to download Real LPC as that's the one I'm most interested in if I have to choose. My friend, who is a guitar player, bought a Les Paul Custom as his first guitar and it has always been my favorite for basic rock and roll. I couldn't afford one so bought my Squire Strat. I don't really regret it but it never was my favorite tone wise. For leads, yeah. For rhythm. No, not really. Too harsh for me.

And who knows? I may end up getting both products depending on how well my Magic The Gathering collection sales go. I already have 3 orders pending that will bring in close to $1,000 alone. And that's just 5% of my collection.

I'll let you know what I ultimately end up doing out of respect to you and all the assistance you've given me.

[Compyfox]

Take a look at the RealEight demo as well. The recent update got another mode that switches from Standard Tuning to Baritone Tuning on top of the already available "Bass mode" (which drops the whole engine by an octave). This way you have two powerful guitars for Chords and Soli, if RealStrat is too thin for you (again, make use of the built in EQ, maybe even one post the guitar before you hit the first pedal).

And as mentioned - wait for a sale. They do happen around holidays, and you can get off fairly well with bundle prices as well.


Whatever you end up with, it's fine. It's ultimately your decision. You asked for feedback on these guitars, I was merely being honest as Musiclab user since Engine v1.

[wagtunes]

I do have one question. Which is my best option for emulating Steve Howe's guitars?

[Compyfox]

If I read that right from a couple of pages on the web, he's mostly using Gibson guitars, or humbucker modded ones if we talk electric.

Sorry, can't really help you much further there.



What I did forget to mention however, is the amount of guitars you're getting from Musiclab.

RealGuitar Acoustic:
- 2 steel guitars (one picked and fingered, one just picked)
- 1 nylon (picked and fingered)
- 1 12-string (picked)
- bonus is a "doubled" and "stereo" patch with Steel Guitars


All E-guitars are "picked only", all engines can be dropped by 1 octave (coarse tuning) if desired to create a pseudo bass, and all e-guitars now have a chord-engine, plus "double track" presets.

RealStrat
Fender Stratocaster like

RealLPC
Gibson LesPaul Custom like

RealRick (Rickenbacker Model 320 look)
- 1 6-string
- 2 12-string (different tunings)
- bonus: stereo/double tracks

RealEight (Ibanez Shape, probably DiMarzio PU's)
- Standard Tuning
- Baritone Tuning
- Bass Tuning (dropped one octave)


The manual does not give any indication what guitars were recorded, neither did the devs ever reveal that. But if you're after "quantity", I'd say that is plenty. And I seem to remember that you've jumped on the MODO Bass deals, so your bass range is definitely covered.

[wagtunes]

Thanks. Outside of the "value" issue, my biggest concern, maybe even more so, is being able to emulate the Yes sound when I start my project next month. The bass is covered. I've gotten close enough to Squire's sound for my own purposes. But the guitar is a completely different story. One of the guitars in the Vir2 collection is the ES335, which is going to pretty much get me close to Howe's ES335 depending on what FX I have to come up with. That right there is a big plus. So unless I can get roughly the same sound from the Music Lab series, Vir2 becomes a must purchase or I drop the idea for the project. As it is, I'm going to get enough criticisms on the sounds once I put the project online. I don't need to make things harder for myself by using sounds that aren't even close.

[Compyfox]

Then hint from my side:

Open the "Output Tab" in the RealGuitar engine, mess with the EQ (a LowShelf of +3 goes a long way, or the other way around for HighShelf if you need more "bite"), then go over to the Mixer and FX Mixer tabs, adjust to taste (raise the pick noise for example for more attack).

Post the guitar, I read that Howe liked Muffs and Fuzz Boxes, else... compressor and Echoplex Delay. And the amp was a fairly clean tube amp (on the verge of breaking up).


Chances are that you have to toy around with RealLPC for a bit until you're "there" with the tone compared to Vir2. But in the end it's the most important how the guitar "feels" to you usability/programming wise.

Good luck

[wagtunes]

Cool. I am going to download the demo. Any restrictions I need to be aware of?

[xphen0m]

I love the features of RealEight, but I hate it's tone. I've tried hard to get it to sound good for my purposes and I've given up.