KVR Audio

Liero · Post by **Liero** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:50 pm

Hi guys,

I'm trying to figure out an easier way to sequence drum samples that have a lead-in in the sample itself - meaning that the actual HIT of the sample isn't directly at the sample start position. The most common example of this is a snare that has some sort of buildup before the actual hit. Think "shhhhhhhh-WHAP".

Working with these kinds of samples has always been a pain because most sequencers are only built for working with samples where the hit equals the beginning of the sample. So to get lead-in samples quantized and in time you have to wiggle their note location in the sequencer to come before the actual hit, and that is a pain.

Anyone know of sequencers or samplers that handle this problem with grace?

Liero · Post by **Liero** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:51 pm

Seems like even very popular pro sequencers like Maschine doesn't have any kind of way to make these easily.

Bubbamusic · Post by **Bubbamusic** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:21 pm

I use Cubase and I wiggle notes on a regular basis. When there is a requirement like note wigglement on a drum track, I change the quantification as fine as I can get it or detach it if I have to. I will make an eight measure midi track with the wigglement , and duplicate the eight measure loop as much as I need it. I can then run through the song and put fills where I need them. Wigglement forever!

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:47 pm

Can be done within seconds with Xils-Lab StiX micro position feature (see at the end of the video-chapter 4-). Note that with this feature you can obtain any desired position. Just place your sound, then use the micro position parameter until it's perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3hDUXNvJ1s

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:03 pm

If you sequence samples directly on the timeline, some DAWs have a snap offset for audio.
But yeah, strange that something similar isn't available for MIDI it seems (at least I don't know anything either).
Would also be handy for strings with slow attack for example.

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:40 pm

The drum sequencer in Avenger has an offset function designed exactly for this purpose.

Liero · Post by **Liero** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:44 pm

deastman wrote:The drum sequencer in Avenger has an offset function designed exactly for this purpose.

Just checked it out - it indeed does just this. Kinda wish it was available for their Phalanx sampler!

Still kinda baffled how few drum sequencers/samplers do this! Checking out Stix as well...

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:56 am

Might be worth to notice, if it's different from other instruments workflows, that StiX Micro Position can have different values for each step of the sequencer, and that this offset can be positive OR negative.

Also, it doesnt only apply to samples specifically (ie it's not a parameter attached to 'sample' sounds), but to all drum sounds, either made with VA synthesis, FM, Cross Synthesis, samples, or a combination of all these methods. In the example of the video, you have two different 'reverse' sounds, but they are played by the same qequencer line, and the same 'base drum sound'.

SciFiArtMan · Post by **SciFiArtMan** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:13 am

I assume you realize you can take any drum synth sound or sample and play it in reverse for this effect (for MIDI, convert to audio and then reverse). And so the sweep-in can sound like the actual drum sound, or a different drum, or gong or cymbal, or phased, etc.. You can even add a tail to reversed sound for better blending.

I realize this doesn't answer your question exactly, but it's how I've done this effect for ...decades, and seems easy to me.

All the best!

Liero · Post by **Liero** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:13 pm

SciFiArtMan wrote:I assume you realize you can take any drum synth sound or sample and play it in reverse for this effect (for MIDI, convert to audio and then reverse). And so the sweep-in can sound like the actual drum sound, or a different drum, or gong or cymbal, or phased, etc.. You can even add a tail to reversed sound for better blending.

I realize this doesn't answer your question exactly, but it's how I've done this effect for ...decades, and seems easy to me.

All the best!

Yes, I'm _not_ talking about how you make the sound but rather how you sequence it. There are plenty of sound types that benefit from having material before the actual transient impact, but extremely few drum sequencers let you easily edit them in without manually having to place them outside snap/grid so that they are in time.

So in other words, I'd like to simply draw in (snap enabled) a beat and have everything be in time regardless if the samples themselves have any material in them before the actual beat hit.

I guess "snap offset" is what you call this feature in DAW's - not sure what you would call it in drum sequencers.

acYm · Post by **acYm** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:33 pm

in Nerve you can shift both individual steps (late graph) and whole pad patterns (offset value).

elassi · Post by **elassi** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:52 pm

Liero wrote:Anyone know of sequencers or samplers that handle this problem with grace?

FL Studio had this option during the very first days (Fruity Loops). There was a shift control per step in the drum sequencer. Obviously they ditched it.

Speaking of a dedicated drum plugin, Geist1/2 can do this, too.

Liero · Post by **Liero** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:29 pm

elassi wrote:
Liero wrote:Anyone know of sequencers or samplers that handle this problem with grace?
FL Studio had this option during the very first days (Fruity Loops). There was a shift control per step in the drum sequencer. Obviously they ditched it.

Speaking of a dedicated drum plugin, Geist1/2 can do this, too.

Do you know what this feature is called in Geist?

elassi · Post by **elassi** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:36 pm

Liero wrote:Do you know what this feature is called in Geist?

Simply "Shift". Find it here:

Admittedly it's not that different to the method of moving a midi note in the piano roll of any sequencer.

Roman Empire · Post by **Roman Empire** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:44 pm

Bubbamusic wrote:I use Cubase and I wiggle notes on a regular basis. When there is a requirement like note wigglement on a drum track, I change the quantification as fine as I can get it or detach it if I have to. I will make an eight measure midi track with the wigglement , and duplicate the eight measure loop as much as I need it. I can then run through the song and put fills where I need them. Wigglement forever!

Almost the same I´m doing, but I always keep those sweeps on a separate track, since 1/16 quantization used on the rest of the drums will have a destructive impact on their starting point that´s mostly a very unique spot that you´d need 1/512 quantization in order to not be moved, and then there´s no point in quantizing.

Best Regards

Roman Empire

Drum Sequencers with sample "lead-in" quantization? (eg a snare with a whoosh before the smack)