bitwig 2 is here

[incubus]

It's all flooding back

Well, I just use the damn thing. Wondering when I'll get my first crash

[CTStump]

I don't think they care much, like almost EVERY OTHER other host company.

Anyone ever watch sports shows? I've cut down to about to .1% of what I used to watch. What they did is determine that anyone complaining about them was simply a "twitter troll" and dismiss all of it as unimportant. In their model, it's all about advertising dollars and buzz. Frankly, I don't think very many people are actually paying attention to any of it. It's on in the background, shills post tweets that look like real people, and as long as everyone gets paid, it's fine.

Pretty sure that, like almost every other host company, they look at complainers that way too. Doesn't really matter what the complaints are.

True but I'm not that cynical.

Whether they do or don't they have lost me as a customer. They prolly don't care but at least others will make their decision and can express what it is or isn't in an open forum outside the afore mentioned sub-forum.

[Daags]

Thanks for unlocking this Hink. I thought that the conversation was relatively civil. I also have to really agree with Daags that with the banning behavior in the BW forum that there needs to be a place to discuss, and that includes criticize, this release that is outside of their purview.

They certainly allow even harsh criticism there, I'm not a particularly diplomatic person about expressing my views and they are all still there. It's just breaking the forum rules, childish spamming and trolling that is culled, and for the benefit of everyone.

are you privvy to every case of censorship though ? because what you're saying here is absolute, and I find it hard to believe you've witnessed it all.

the censorship that I seen with my own eyes (post deleted, user banned from the sub-forum), certainly wasn't 'trolling' or in breach of any rules .. unless there are rules unique to the Bitwig sub-forum that you can't be irate about certain things ?

David's situation also seems wrong and excessive, and Dom's explanation for it was not at all satisfactory in my, and it appears other's, opinion.

and terms like 'trolling' can be vague, and abused and mis-applied... I think we all realise that, but what I find most suspect of all is Dom using 'spamming' as a justification for deleting/banning users. This is dodgy, to me, because anyone who is persistent about a point of view could be called a 'spammer' ... and unlike trolling, 'spamming' should apply universally, no ? If someguy keeps joining threads, repeating Bitwig is great, the subscription model is great ... isn't he just as much a 'spammer' as the guy who keeps talking about that bug that was never fixed, or the obvious problems with this new payment proposal ? It's primarily for this reason that I find the mis-use/abuse of the term 'spammer' more unsettling than, say, suggesting some customer is trolling because they're particularly irate.


at any rate, the deletions/censorship and the bannings are happening all too frequently there, imo, whether some cases are justified or not ... for that reason, it's that bit much more imperative that we can have at least one Bitwig thread beyond their purview, as ghettosynth put it.

Even if there wasn't these questions of censorship, it would be no harm to have such a thread in the more general sub-forum to which it belongs anyway.

imo, ymmv, god bless america.

[Daags]

I'm also glad too that thie subject is still alive. There are more users with sane and sensible questions or statements that need expressing.

On topic, I really think the Dev's(Bitwig that is and any others planning this scheme)need to pay attention to this thread though as there are some legitimate concerns being layed out that affects more than JUST their current license holders.

The potential market is also very, very, VERY concerned.

+1, I'm in complete agreement. And this isn't some situation unique to KVR ... it seems the backlash is unanimous, certainly in all other websites/blogs/forums etc which I visit (some more frequently than others) where I see Bitwig being discussed, the theme is the same.

It will be interesting to see if Bitwig stick to their guns on this, against what appears to be the (social media) consensus.

[Daags]

Thanks for unlocking this Hink. I thought that the conversation was relatively civil. I also have to really agree with Daags that with the banning behavior in the BW forum that there needs to be a place to discuss, and that includes criticize, this release that is outside of their purview.

co-signed - thanks Hink!

[CTStump]

It will be interesting to see if Bitwig stick to their guns on this, against what appears to be the (social media) consensus.

As I'm open minded I went to their forum to see what the users there are saying and I noticed 2 polls that are posted. i voted to see thr results and it looks like there is support for this policy.

That may not be indicative of real results but it does show support at least there. Outside of that I really don't know except for this thread.

It in no way changes the conclusion that I came up with as the fanboi factor may high in that equation and simple math nailed it down as far as I'm concerned.

[ghettosynth]

Thanks for unlocking this Hink. I thought that the conversation was relatively civil. I also have to really agree with Daags that with the banning behavior in the BW forum that there needs to be a place to discuss, and that includes criticize, this release that is outside of their purview.

They certainly allow even harsh criticism there, I'm not a particularly diplomatic person about expressing my views and they are all still there. It's just breaking the forum rules, childish spamming and trolling that is culled, and for the benefit of everyone.

Perhaps, I'm not subscribed to their forum, mostly because it's too busy and I have been waiting for version 2.0 to revisit whether or not I was interested. However, I agree with Daags that the key element of this thread is that it's not in their purview to ban people based on any particular criticism.

I also agree that in a general sense that there is nothing wrong with a topic appropriate discussion in the general topic forum.

[Daags]

It will be interesting to see if Bitwig stick to their guns on this, against what appears to be the (social media) consensus.

As I'm open minded I went to their forum to see what the users there are saying and I noticed 2 polls that are posted. i voted to see thr results and it looks like there is support for this policy.

That may not be indicative of real results but it does show support at least there. Outside of that I really don't know except for this thread.

It in no way changes the conclusion that I came up with as the fanboi factor may high in that equation and simple math nailed it down as far as I'm concerned.

ya, i was aware of one poll and checked the other ... well, my thoughts on those polls: first of all, the polls are asking somewhat different questions (if we're talking about the same polls ? one asks what people think of the new price model, the other asks who will upgrade asap). And there seems to be a significant disparity between the two polls ... the one asking about the price model has over twice as many votes, and 'only' 29% expressly think the new model is OK. the poll asking about who is going to upgrade asap has less than half as many participants, and those saying they will upgrade straightaway are 45% .... I really don't know what we can infer from these polls, when looking at them individually or combined. One things for sure, in both cases the expressly supportive options are outweighed by the dissmissive or uncertain.

anyway, I posted this a few pages back - you might have missed it:

also, and this is not exactly scientific ... but check out the sweetwater.com DAW Software section. By default, the page should be arranged by 'most popular' from top to bottom. but if it isn't, set it to that (it's a drop-down box, in the top-left quadrant of the page). just look where bitwig is in this list.

https://www.sweetwater.com/c699--DAW_Software/all

it seems to me, when you look at sales rankings like the sweetwater DAW Software section (admittedly just a single example from one retailer) that Bitwig are in no position to lose any ground whatsoever, either financially or in terms of market share ... I mean, if they need to balance the books ... I hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot with this scheme ... I'd have thought they'd be looking to expand their userbase, but that seems really unlikely given the updated retail price for V2 (unless that was a gambit to rouse people into a 'oh, better buy V1 while it's cheap!' frenzy, and then ride them for the 12-month subscription fees when they inevitably want their bugs fixed). I mean, who is going to spend the guts of 400 euro on a DAW without doing a little research (as well as demo'ing, obvs).

I guess my point is, in the context of the polls - and looking at existing sales rankings from a major retailer like sweetwater as an example - that they need significantly more support in those polls than what they appear to have ? so as not to lose ground ? as unscientific as all this is, of course.

/ramble

[incubus]

See, when I've been against them, I'm the bad guy. If I'm for them, I'm the bad guy. Not to make this about me but even if I wasn't here KVR and the rest of the world are FICKLE.

It's too weird for me. I was robbed in the DNA scam of 1965, I've been led to believe 2+2=4. I can't just arbitrarily make up a different equasion like most of the rest of this world.

No matter what side I take I'll be wrong. In the meantime we can't even post funny cat pics to even out the harshness

[grains of sand]

The only ones hurting their bussines is BW itself with this new model.

Comparing Propellerhead Reason with Bitwig's upgrade plan.

Reason 7 March 12, 2013
>>> 18 months <<<
Reason 8 September 30, 2014
>>> 21 months <<<
Reason 9 June 21, 2016

Reason upgrade $129 for 1 major update
Bitwig upgrade $169 for at least 2 major updates
(unless Bitwig doesn't release one in over 12 months)

$40 extra to receive at least 1 extra major update with a 1/3rd of the wait time

Plus they avoided the subscription model so users could hold onto their perpetual licenses with the option to upgrade or not upgrade at anytime. Seems like a great new perspective and lens to look through.

[EnGee]

See, when I've been against them, I'm the bad guy. If I'm for them, I'm the bad guy. Not to make this about me but even if I wasn't here KVR and the rest of the world are FICKLE.

Your timing is wrong!

No matter what side I take I'll be wrong. In the meantime we can't even post funny cat pics to even out the harshness

Yes, I agree! But, the Mod said to save it to the other thread (I think he meant this one, right?)

Anyway, coming in 2016:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/474980/

[incubus]

This guy is killing me Even me, the most skeptical cynic of skeptical cynics knows the ides of troll

Honestly, I'm bitching about Reason's updates, this is a troll, only a troll, please don't touch that dial!

[popskull]

The only ones hurting their bussines is BW itself with this new model.

Comparing Propellerhead Reason with Bitwig's upgrade plan.

Reason 7 March 12, 2013
>>> 18 months <<<
Reason 8 September 30, 2014
>>> 21 months <<<
Reason 9 June 21, 2016

Reason upgrade $129 for 1 major update
Bitwig upgrade $169 for at least 2 major updates
(unless Bitwig doesn't release one in over 12 months)

$40 extra to receive at least 1 extra major update with a 1/3rd of the wait time

Plus they avoided the subscription model so users could hold onto their perpetual licenses with the option to upgrade or not upgrade at anytime. Seems like a great new perspective and lens to look through.

Bitwig will not release a major update within 12 months . They have taken 3 years to release fixes for bugs . Reason has been around a long time and have a large user base . Bitwig has lost its user base

[.jon]

Perhaps, I'm not subscribed to their forum, mostly because it's too busy and I have been waiting for version 2.0 to revisit whether or not I was interested. However, I agree with Daags that the key element of this thread is that it's not in their purview to ban people based on any particular criticism.

I also agree that in a general sense that there is nothing wrong with a topic appropriate discussion in the general topic forum.

They haven't banned anyone expressing their criticism like normal people do, or even like mean people such as me do, there's plenty of discussion with both positive and negative opinions expressed without censorship. David, the self-proclaimed martyr, did not even discuss BWS 2, he was banned for spamming off-topic crap and repetitive breaking of their forum rules. Another person creating new fake accounts to rant like a retard has also been banned numerous times, this is normal moderation and I'm thankful someone uses their time for such.

But yeah, I also think that locking threads in this section is unnecessary, anyone not interested in heated discussions or cat pics can just close the browser.

[grains of sand]

The only ones hurting their bussines is BW itself with this new model.

Comparing Propellerhead Reason with Bitwig's upgrade plan.

Reason 7 March 12, 2013
>>> 18 months <<<
Reason 8 September 30, 2014
>>> 21 months <<<
Reason 9 June 21, 2016

Reason upgrade $129 for 1 major update
Bitwig upgrade $169 for at least 2 major updates
(unless Bitwig doesn't release one in over 12 months)

$40 extra to receive at least 1 extra major update with a 1/3rd of the wait time

Plus they avoided the subscription model so users could hold onto their perpetual licenses with the option to upgrade or not upgrade at anytime. Seems like a great new perspective and lens to look through.

Bitwig will not release a major update within 12 months . They have taken 3 years to release fixes for bugs . Reason has been around a long time and have a large user base . Bitwig has lost its user base

"We will be able to release key features as they are ready - instead of holding them back for major releases. This enables us to offer you new feature and content updates more regularly."