Hey all,
My name is Mark, and I was wondering if some of you had some pointers about how best to optimize electronic music (i.e. backing tracks) for live PA's? Note that my current setup requires that all backing tracks will be mixed down to stereo files containing all instruments (i.e. one stereo backing track with drums & synths etc per song / cannot send separate tracks to FOH).
1) Assuming I'm playing 500-2000 capacity venues with a solid full-range FOH PA's, how do—generally speaking—FOH systems sound different from full-range studio speakers? To my ears live PA's often veer slightly brighter than studio systems... would it therefore be advisable to EQ the live tracks less brightly? If so, what specific frequency ranges do you think are the most "problematic" or "different" live and might benefit from some mix adjustment on the live tracks?
2) When mixing my tracks for live playback, I've often read that one ought to compress and limit the live tracks less than one would a commercial release. I understand that heavy limiting degrades the audio, and that in a live environment volume (i.e. limiting) really isn't necessary, so it makes perfect sense to me to not limit live playback tracks. But what about mild compression to enhance the glue of a mix? What are the reasons one might chose to avoid finalizing tracks with 2-3 db of gain reduction from say an SSL Comp when preparing live tracks?
3) Currently my live tracks are mixed and balanced to peak around 0dBVU. That obviously leaves a lot of headroom to bring up the volumes, for example using a limiter more as a normalizer (i.e. not actually using the limiter for gain reduction)... would you advise against this? I just want to make sure I strike the right balance here between providing enough signal at my interface's output set at unity vs. my output being so loud that it's clipping the FOH inputs... basically I'm just wondering what the best practice here would be, keeping in mind signal to noise ratio, optimal gain structure between computer and FOH desk etc.
4) Any other tips?
Thank you & looking forward to reading your thoughts!! x
-Mark
Optimizing electronic music for live PA's
-
wearetemporary wearetemporary https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=393413
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 2 posts since 7 Feb, 2017
-
- KVRist
- 483 posts since 17 Dec, 2013 from The Netherlands
-
- KVRAF
- 15272 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
1) I usually have a 32-band graphical EQ inbetween the mixer output and the FOH amps. During the soundcheck I play some reference tracks of which I know perfectly how they should sound, and adjust the EQ for the combination of amp, speakers and room to sound good. My set of reference tracks has one track with just vocals & piano, one track with a lot of bass content, and one track with an extremely occupied midrange. So I use that to search for the right balance: let all the tracks sound as good and pure as I can get. And then when the crowd comes in and the air gets hot & humid, you can tweak the EQ a bit for the changed circumstances. Walk around, mingle with the public, listen how it sounds for them. Don't stay at the mixing desk all the time.
2) & 3) In live music reproduction (I wouldn't differentiate a whole band from a preproduced backing track plus some extra live tracks) you have an engineer sitting at the FOH mixer. He would make sure anything thrown at him gets out well. That is: adjust the gain or fader when an input is softer or louder than normally expected. That is what the gain knob on a channel is for. A proper mixing desk can take very hot and very soft inputs, really not a problem... Headroom / noise floor is usually no issue at all, don't worry about that. Classical CDs produced in 1990 had an RMS of -20dBfs, and you'd still have to put the amp at 11 to hear the -90dB noise floor.
Compression is often applied for artistical reasons, so leave that in. You could do without a limiter, for upping the level it's obsolete. But if you play commercially mastered tracks with single-digit RMS levels, you'd just lower the fader a bit and everybody is happy.
2) & 3) In live music reproduction (I wouldn't differentiate a whole band from a preproduced backing track plus some extra live tracks) you have an engineer sitting at the FOH mixer. He would make sure anything thrown at him gets out well. That is: adjust the gain or fader when an input is softer or louder than normally expected. That is what the gain knob on a channel is for. A proper mixing desk can take very hot and very soft inputs, really not a problem... Headroom / noise floor is usually no issue at all, don't worry about that. Classical CDs produced in 1990 had an RMS of -20dBfs, and you'd still have to put the amp at 11 to hear the -90dB noise floor.
Compression is often applied for artistical reasons, so leave that in. You could do without a limiter, for upping the level it's obsolete. But if you play commercially mastered tracks with single-digit RMS levels, you'd just lower the fader a bit and everybody is happy.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. 
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
-
- KVRAF
- 4711 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder
One thing I wouldn't do is highpass all the lows at something silly like 50hz - keep 'em!
-
Mister Natural Mister Natural https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=164174 - KVRAF
- 2834 posts since 28 Oct, 2007 from michigan
aren't most club pa systems rigged to mono ?
expert only on what it feels like to be me
https://soundcloud.com/mrnatural-1/tracks
https://soundcloud.com/mrnatural-1/tracks
-
- KVRAF
- 15272 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
Shhh.... Noone noticed that yetMister Natural wrote:aren't most club pa systems rigged to mono ?
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
-
- KVRer
- 7 posts since 4 Feb, 2016
The subs in club PAs are mono, the mids and hi end are usually stereo. I really don't know where this myth comes from.
1) Let the FOH engineer worry about it. The hi end will be variable based on crowd size, temperature, etc. If you set it from the stage you'll never know what the crowd are actually hearing. It's the sound man's job, trust him/her.
2) Everything will run through the house system which usually includes a mixer and some comps. Plenty of glue. You're also in a club, critical differences are far less prevalent and the crowd generally less focused on them. Just make sure your stereo mixes don't have anything that jumps out. Also, if you will have synths, make sure all patches are at or near the same level; you don't want to change patches from a quiet one to a loud one unexpectedly. Same with any effects settings.
3)Don't worry about it, that's the FOH engineers job. Are you the performer or the engineer? You're gonna hafta take off the engineering hat and entrust your sound to someone else. This is difficult for many people, but if the venue is reputable and has consistent gigs without complaint wrt sound, you should be fine.
At the end of the day you just have to trust someone else, and yes, most live sound engineers are quite capable of delivering!
1) Let the FOH engineer worry about it. The hi end will be variable based on crowd size, temperature, etc. If you set it from the stage you'll never know what the crowd are actually hearing. It's the sound man's job, trust him/her.
2) Everything will run through the house system which usually includes a mixer and some comps. Plenty of glue. You're also in a club, critical differences are far less prevalent and the crowd generally less focused on them. Just make sure your stereo mixes don't have anything that jumps out. Also, if you will have synths, make sure all patches are at or near the same level; you don't want to change patches from a quiet one to a loud one unexpectedly. Same with any effects settings.
3)Don't worry about it, that's the FOH engineers job. Are you the performer or the engineer? You're gonna hafta take off the engineering hat and entrust your sound to someone else. This is difficult for many people, but if the venue is reputable and has consistent gigs without complaint wrt sound, you should be fine.
At the end of the day you just have to trust someone else, and yes, most live sound engineers are quite capable of delivering!
-
- KVRian
- 598 posts since 10 Jan, 2017
I've been doing this for many years now and have heard my backing tracks, and others over a wide variety of FOH rigs in small to medium sized venues - so I'll chime in with my thoughts ...
For the love of God do *not* use excessive dynamics processing on your backing tracks. While the backing track isn’t “live” it should at least *sound* live to an extent. There is nothing more horrible than hearing excessive compression or limiting artifacts over a loud PA at a live show. I use a small amount of compression and limiting - specifically with TDR Kotelnikov - which is super transparent, and Fabfilter Pro-L - also very transparent when you don't work it too hard. I'll knock off no more than 1dB on each. I don't find glueing the mix together with colourful compressors or other processes to be all that useful in this scenario, personally. A bit of separation is a good thing. And if you’re doing any live instrumentation over the top then it will just sound odd over a squashed and crunchy backing track.
The tracks we play in my live act are fairly dynamic with breakdowns, quiet sections etc. Whilst that means things are occasionally a bit on the quiet side, the reaction from the audience is so much better when everything kicks in – so it’s worth it. Let’s just hope front of house aren’t too heavy handed with dynamics processing at their end. I was at one show where everyone except the headline act was getting a constant 4-5dB of gain reduction and it sounded hideous.
EQ wise – there’s been very few rigs that I’ve heard that have been tonally neutral – usually either on the bright or dull side. In each case though, a little more emphasis on the midrange of the backing track has never been a bad thing. The midrange is where the power and emotion of your music is coming from – so it really needs to be heard. However I would do this by backing off the highs and low-mids a little, rather than boosting mids. Your low end probably going to be exaggerated on a big rig so there’s no need for excessive boosts in that region – unless you like the sound of boomy mud.
Balance wise – YMMV but I’ve never played on a mono rig. It’s always been a stereo stack or line array with mono subs. However I still find that super wide sounds tend to vanish a little bit – so keep the important bits of the track fairly central.
Lastly – use the highest quality converters you’ve got if you’re playing from a laptop. An iPad or a built in stereo jack from a laptop might “do the job” but I can guarantee an audible difference in clarity and depth from better gear. I’ve used RME and TC Electronic interfaces live and had great results with both. The portable Apogee interface (I forget the name) sounds fantastic on stage too.
This is all just my opinion mind you – I’m sure others have been very successful doing the exact opposite of what I’ve just said
For the love of God do *not* use excessive dynamics processing on your backing tracks. While the backing track isn’t “live” it should at least *sound* live to an extent. There is nothing more horrible than hearing excessive compression or limiting artifacts over a loud PA at a live show. I use a small amount of compression and limiting - specifically with TDR Kotelnikov - which is super transparent, and Fabfilter Pro-L - also very transparent when you don't work it too hard. I'll knock off no more than 1dB on each. I don't find glueing the mix together with colourful compressors or other processes to be all that useful in this scenario, personally. A bit of separation is a good thing. And if you’re doing any live instrumentation over the top then it will just sound odd over a squashed and crunchy backing track.
The tracks we play in my live act are fairly dynamic with breakdowns, quiet sections etc. Whilst that means things are occasionally a bit on the quiet side, the reaction from the audience is so much better when everything kicks in – so it’s worth it. Let’s just hope front of house aren’t too heavy handed with dynamics processing at their end. I was at one show where everyone except the headline act was getting a constant 4-5dB of gain reduction and it sounded hideous.
EQ wise – there’s been very few rigs that I’ve heard that have been tonally neutral – usually either on the bright or dull side. In each case though, a little more emphasis on the midrange of the backing track has never been a bad thing. The midrange is where the power and emotion of your music is coming from – so it really needs to be heard. However I would do this by backing off the highs and low-mids a little, rather than boosting mids. Your low end probably going to be exaggerated on a big rig so there’s no need for excessive boosts in that region – unless you like the sound of boomy mud.
Balance wise – YMMV but I’ve never played on a mono rig. It’s always been a stereo stack or line array with mono subs. However I still find that super wide sounds tend to vanish a little bit – so keep the important bits of the track fairly central.
Lastly – use the highest quality converters you’ve got if you’re playing from a laptop. An iPad or a built in stereo jack from a laptop might “do the job” but I can guarantee an audible difference in clarity and depth from better gear. I’ve used RME and TC Electronic interfaces live and had great results with both. The portable Apogee interface (I forget the name) sounds fantastic on stage too.
This is all just my opinion mind you – I’m sure others have been very successful doing the exact opposite of what I’ve just said
