Where's aftertouch on most keyboards? Don't you guys use it?

[aMUSEd]

Well he was

[JCJR]

Pressure sensors do not pick up position, they pick up pressure. I think any other implementation would be prohibitively expensive and too fragile or finicky to be used in a keybed.

Thanks aciddose. For position I was thinking of vaxmidi where the key bottom would need to be somewhat mushy to allow the AT to work. It measures pressure via change in position of the optical hammers.

Another system which measured pressure via position was the ensoniq inductive keyboard. Little coils on the sensor scanning board and metal plates inside the keys. It would measure velocity via rate of inductance change, and measure poly AT if the inductance would further change from the normal keydown position. The plate has to get nearer the coil to measure pressure via change in position.

I saw some chanhel aftertouch mechanisms in the past which spring loaded the keybed, and somehow modulated a photocell with the change in position if you push hard enough to compress the springs. Can't recall if it was optical shutter or change of light angle, but it was measuring pressure via position.

I also saw some channel AT implemented with "squishy conductive plastic" pressure sensors where they need a good bit of squishing to follow full sensor range. Measure pressure via position.

Maybe nowadays everybody uses stiff strain gages as in precision scales, dunno.

Having a squishy AT feel could be beneficial because it would give tactile feedback and be easier to control. On the other hand it would feel squishy which isn't always desirable.

Having a hard-as-a-rock AT which has no movement associated with pressure measurement, wouldn't have tactile feedback and might invite more repetitive stress injuries pushing hard against an un-yielding surface. But with the right kind of stiff sensor ought to be properly software adjustable. If the strain gage is linear over a 1 : 10000 range as the acculab scale I mentioned, it ought to be easy to map 10000 linear raw values down to the mere 127 normally needed. About any response one would want.

[deastman]

Historically, my favorite keybed was the Kawai K5000, both for the semi-weighted keys and for the aftertouch. I did use that expression occasionally, mostly on pad sounds.

MPE controllers like the Seaboard and Linnstrument are something else entirely, which really need to be experienced firsthand to fully appreciate. Because they are constantly sending out a high rate of modulation on every axis, it isn't a question of leaning in to activate aftertouch or reaching for a wheel to initiate a modulation- the sounds are constantly shifting in subtle or not so subtle ways. It just feels more alive, in the same way that a finger on a vibrating string is directly controlling and influencing the sound it generates.

As for Vince, he has a very dry, deadpan sense of humor. I was laughing through that whole video.

[JCJR]

Many guitar players can't handle light gauge strings either. Should string manufacturers only make heavy gauge to 'help' everyone play stable and consistent? And equally have guitar makers take off those whammy bars?

Extending the analogy, slinky strings would be the equivalent of Poly Pressure and whammy bar equivalent to Channel Aftertouch.

A good guitarist could probably do most "finger bending" tricks with a whammy bar, but the finger bending is better for mono lines and small chords. Especially tricks like bending some strings more than others.

But except for really good guitarists, it would be hard to get whammy bar effects with finger bending on large chords. For one reason, the weak fingers would have trouble tracking the strong fingers "exactly". Especially for chords where the weak fingers happen to be on fat strings and the strong fingers happen to be on skinny strings.

So if one wants to "equally modulate" pitch of a big guitar chord, the whammy bar might be the likeliest weapon of choice, compared to torquing the neck or trying to wobble all fingers in the chord exactly the same amount.

So finger bends vs whammy bar would have their "best uses" as with Channel Aftertouch vs Poly Pressure.

Maybe I'm wrong, but am guessing that a guitarist will be most likely to do heavy bends with the strong fingers, except real skilled strong players. So it seems similar to the problem of doing consistent Poly Pressure between strong vs weak fingers.

But maybe there are keyboards which have such nice controllable aftertouch that such issues do not exist. Dunno.

[tapper mike]

Pressure sensors do not pick up position, they pick up pressure. I think any other implementation would be prohibitively expensive and too fragile or finicky to be used in a keybed.

Thanks aciddose. For position I was thinking of vaxmidi where the key bottom would need to be somewhat mushy to allow the AT to work. It measures pressure via change in position of the optical hammers.

Another system which measured pressure via position was the ensoniq inductive keyboard. Little coils on the sensor scanning board and metal plates inside the keys. It would measure velocity via rate of inductance change, and measure poly AT if the inductance would further change from the normal keydown position. The plate has to get nearer the coil to measure pressure via change in position.

I saw some chanhel aftertouch mechanisms in the past which spring loaded the keybed, and somehow modulated a photocell with the change in position if you push hard enough to compress the springs. Can't recall if it was optical shutter or change of light angle, but it was measuring pressure via position.

I also saw some channel AT implemented with "squishy conductive plastic" pressure sensors where they need a good bit of squishing to follow full sensor range. Measure pressure via position.

Maybe nowadays everybody uses stiff strain gages as in precision scales, dunno.

Having a squishy AT feel could be beneficial because it would give tactile feedback and be easier to control. On the other hand it would feel squishy which isn't always desirable.

Having a hard-as-a-rock AT which has no movement associated with pressure measurement, wouldn't have tactile feedback and might invite more repetitive stress injuries pushing hard against an un-yielding surface. But with the right kind of stiff sensor ought to be properly software adjustable. If the strain gage is linear over a 1 : 10000 range as the acculab scale I mentioned, it ought to be easy to map 10000 linear raw values down to the mere 127 normally needed. About any response one would want.

This is why I like starr labs stuff. Everything is fully assignable/programmable. If you get an xy pad you can assign any one of the four directions to it's own cc value. They also have relative settings to choose from on all of their controllers (pots, touch strip etc) which means you don't have to look at where you are before you make a transition (like encoder wheels) you just set up the parameters and swipe the surface or spin the wheel.

A great thing to have if you are a keyboard player and want depth in pressure sensitivity may be to invest in a McMillen softstep.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZUrjfJEme4

A funny thing about guitars and midi. First off let me say I'm a huge fan of tripleplay by fishman. Of all the years that midi/synth technology has been available for guitar. Very few actually make the transition to all synth. Part of the issue has to do with.... the guitar itself. Even the most perfectly intune guitar will still sound "less than in tune when playing it through to midi. It does not matter whether you use earvana or adjustable nuts, it doesn't matter if you believe in the fienstien (sorry forgot his name) tuning method. It doesn't matter if you get closer to being intune using fanned frets. About the only way it really really is going to line up is if you get one of those true temperment necks like Steve Vai plays.


For many stuck in the mud guitarists they refuse to do any type of adaption that may pull them away from what they have now. They are very very comfortable with how they do things and how things must feel. Which runs contradictory to what they think they want to experience. "I want everything as it's always been but somehow I want it to be completely different without having to work at it". To which my reply is... "Oh you want to sound exactly like Yngwie Mallmsteen but you don't want to give up your blues licks or learn the harmonic minor scale and work out some arpeggios/sweeps."

All of our ears have grown accustomed to the character of the guitars tuning. We've all heard them since birth and while we are easy to accept it as "that's just the way it sounds" When one runs that through midi and out to an instrument sound it becomes evident that it's not the same.

To a certain extent I'm just as bad. I've always hated using mod and bend wheels. I've never quite fully adapted to them and I think my early disdain for them has fueled me to the point where I'll never develop the nuance that some players seem to have operating them.

[aciddose]

I think modulation ("mod wheel") is oft misused and is in my opinion best suited to infrequently adjusted gradual parameter sweeps. For example you probably wouldn't use it for cutoff, but it's absolutely great to adjust the LFO speed + depth combination on a "wub wub wub" sound.

It's most often for some insane reason applied to vibrato. This is in my opinion the very best application of aftertouch (mono) or pressure (poly). Any frequently adjusted modulation that requires more detailed control. The clip of it being applied to a sequencing parameter (step-sequence, modulation, whatever) as in himalaya's example at the beginning of this thread is exactly where it's best applied in my opinion. Vibrato is just the most generic sort of modulation that works on nearly any sustained sound.

For cutoff or volume sweeps or similar effects applied to any parameter I believe pedals are the best option as this provides another hands-free input. Breath controllers are also frequently used for this purpose but are a bit more troublesome/difficult to use of course. If you wanted to go full-on Ray Charles you could always use an IR/laser beam sensor similar to Roland's "D-Beam" aimed at your forehead.

[tapper mike]

@aciddose - Agreed.

@JCJR / BBFG#

Can't or wont handle light gauge strings? When I was a younger player I'd break 9's on stage every single freaking time. So I'd move up to 10's, sometimes Even 13's It wasn't the string it was me. I was pouring out too much nervous energy into an under powered amp and I felt if I could hit those strings as hard as I could. As I matured I gained more self control while playing live. It wasn't the string it was just my nervous energy.

For more then two decades now. I've played 09's on my trem equipped guitars and some have loosend or fewer springs. They aren't Floating trems (floyd rose) which imho are more problems then they are worth I've noticed that among older players some can no longer handle heavier strings. We all get sucked into this mentality of "It's the only way I've ever done something and I'm not going to try to do something different if it requires effort" Sometimes that's legit and sometimes it's not. I'm never going to play a Gretcsh or a washburn big box guitar again. One of the biggest hinderances for me playing a Variax in the distant past was the oversized guitar/neck/action. Thank god for the variax standard. It's still not "my type of neck" but I'm more than happy enough to make the effort so it becomes my type of neck.

[BBFG#]

I use Custom Lights .009-.046.
I know GITnerds that will only use .008
I sold more lights and mediums than all else though. (.010/.011)
Because it seems that most of the guitarists in the world are predominately rhythm players.
Just like it appears that the majority of keyboardists are -
(or more accurately; trigger on 'producers').

In these cases, it is to a company's benefit to build an instrument for the beginners to aspire to, instead of limiting everyone to the basic beginner levels. Yes, if aftertouch is beyond your capabilities, it means you need to practice.

[Jim Y]

It's true that many don't understand AT, channel or AT. Some think it's a special controller that needs something that specifically requires it. You should be able to use it as if it were a mod wheel and assign it to anything. My only experience is Roland Channel AT. It is too insensitive for anything much. I use it to trigger fast organ rotary. The pressure needed stops me from doing it too often.

Strange how an industry can ignore its customers so effectively. So similar to the guitar world in the 70's with the likes of Gibson seeming to refuse to make any longer what its customers actually wanted. Result - a stronger second-hand market than for the new. Well, what choice was there between a 60's LP with cracked lacquer or a brand new L6-S? "An L what?" you may ask. Actually, it was a nice guitar, but not what Page etc were playing.

Currently we hear of people seeking things like DX-7 or certain old stage piano's, just to use as a controller keyboard. Crazy state of affairs. Keyboard/synth players are probably the most adventurous gear buyers - why are they looking to the past? Every manufacturer in the sector should be very worried that a significant number of people are tempted to spend more on old equipment than on new because the new don't cut it.
Ok, we finally have plenty of actual analogue stuff made new, and it's selling well - because it's what the market wants. Now if we go back towards the end of the "first analogue epoch", "aftertouch" was actually just starting to make an appearance.
So maybe, in an effort to get one step of the crowd, some maker will bring AT in sooner or later and start the ball rolling.
But maybe it should wait a little bit until they start making Synth keyboards that are just nice to play anyway, like they used to be? While they're at it, how about an Organ keyboard that actually feels like an organ keyboard?

Fatar should be worried. it will only take one OEM factory in China to have the right products and customers and Fatar will be history.

[aciddose]

I actually have a DX-7 I use as a controller. It's quite nice other than the velocity limit. Arguably much higher quality than modern controllers until you get into the very high end market which normally has weighted keys and other features I'm not interested in.

The DX-7 does have adjustment for the aftertouch circuit although only threshold/scale parameters and no linearity adjustment. It remains unfortunately very exponential which means the effect is quite sudden, but even without modification a 30+ year old sensor can be tuned to a provide very reasonable response. It doesn't require any significant pressure to activate (values like 1, 2, 3 are at minimal pressure beyond the key depression) and the gain can be tuned to produce the maximum value at a moderate pressure.

The board is under the keybed making it impossible to tune and play at the same time. You need to lift the keybed and tilt it vertical under tabs in the chassis designed for this adjustment. It requires trial-and-error in a set of three or four adjustments and tests to get it where you want it.

With modifications (I plan to do, haven't bothered yet) the circuit can be tuned to produce a more linear response and accurate readings at very low pressures. Think of pressing in the center of a toothpick held between the thumb and index finger with the opposing index without breaking it. That range feels reasonable to me.

[JCJR]

Thanks for the ideas, Tapper Mike

That McMillen softstep looks interesting. Not something I feel a need for, but a kewl product. Made me wonder about "squishy" foot controllers though. A squishy dome-shaped foot pedal about the size of a hockey puck might be better/more fun than conventional expression pedal for some uses. I'd probably want to stick with piano sustain pedal for sustain pedal uses, and conventional expression pedal for volume. But maybe wah or some other kinds of mod would be more responsive with a squishy pressure pedal rather than expression pedal or continuous-value sustain pedal?

One thing, (if playing seated) maybe putting a squishy pressure pedal under the heel would be better than putting it under the toe? The calf muscle being stronger than the shin muscles-- Downward heel motion would be "gravity assisted" and upward heel motion easier because of the stronger calf muscle?

Guitarists I knew, long ago they seemed to avoid slinky strings complaining of--
1. Don't like the tone
2. Go dead too quick and have to be replaced too often
3. Break too easy

Maybe modern materials have changed such factors, and its only a matter of taste anyway. I can't hardly play guitar, but use medium or medium-light because I'm not strong enough for heavy strings, but have inadequate finger control to play light strings in-tune.

A good guitarist friend has long owned a beautiful black Gibson Explorer as best I recall it was the "first reissue" Explorers, maybe 1970's. Supposedly Gibson had QC issues back then but they built his Explorer right anyway. He decided it had best tone with fairly heavy strings and that guitar has a long scale neck. He had it adjusted beautiful, no neck buzzes, good intonation and strings real close to the frets all the way up and down. He plays it great, strong fingers, bends whatever he wants no problemo with the big strings and long neck. But I never could play that thang. Even with the strings practically touching the frets, with the long scale it was hard to push down those coathanger-sized strings just the tiny amount required.

[Stupid American Pig]

My Jx-8p is the only keyboard I had that I notice the aftertouch "working" on. I have a studio logic vmk-61 and it doesnt seem to generate any aftertouch..

[chk071]

Hm, it should though? http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/fat ... mk176-plus

[godly]

As I see how much commotion aftertouch gives, I'd hope that hardware developers take note of it.
Probably because of cost and quality they don't implement it to much, but as lots of people here say, it's crucial to dynamic playing such a complicated instrument as a Synth is.
I can't actually believe they have the nerve selling keyboards without it. It only proves that the market has shifted to more home users instead of live performers.
But please don't let it be a tendency.

Don't like AT? Turn it off!
For me it's a constantly used feature, all me presets make heavy use of it.
Mostly for Synth leads vibrato or swelling paths.

[godly]

So maybe, in an effort to get one step of the crowd, some maker will bring AT in sooner or later and start the ball rolling.
But maybe it should wait a little bit until they start making Synth keyboards that are just nice to play anyway, like they used to be? While they're at it, how about an Organ keyboard that actually feels like an organ keyboard?

Fatar should be worried. it will only take one OEM factory in China to have the right products and customers and Fatar will be history.

True that!
They take the competition for granted and the competition these days copies all from the first group.

Keyboard is the last thing manufacterors invest in these days.
I can't believe people buy that crappy M-audio stuff. I did it 2 times and never again.
Toy quality jacks, rotary and wheels.
My pitchwheel even gave wrong values on stage. So the Synth was detuned. Pitty because I liked the venom concept.
They aren't even cheap anymore.

It's all about looks and hype but nothing essential musically or quality these days.

I only owned some decent keybeds, Roland D50 and my Nord Stage waterfall.
All other are almost not usable for professional music.
I owned a Korg Triton ProX 88, the weighted keys were like heavy blades to my fingers.
Keyboards should also respond to your play so you can do fast arpegio or organ slides like a waterfall.