Plugin Alliance - Black Box Analog Design HG-2

[jens]

They must know it triggers uncontrollable GAS

I does - I had the plan to purchase Fault while it's on sale plus using my voucher to get it super-cheap.

I ended up purchasing Fault, Dent, Mo-Verb, De-Verb, Attacker, bx_tuner, Lindell 254E and the Millennia EQ...

I barely managed to resist adding HG-2 on top of that...

On one hand I can't really complain because I ended up paying very little for the lot - but then again: how many plugins does a man need?

[JohnnyA]

Guys.... For those who have been reading my posts...

You'll know that my main complaint about the HG-2 was the lack of Mid/Side processing. Because I very often like to saturate only the side material.

With the news that Logic Pro X now has built-in Dual Mono (which inserts 2x mono instances of a plugin) which can be set to Mid/Side mode, I was curious about how HG-2 would perform in Mid/Side.

And you'll also know that my second biggest complaint was that there was no automatic gain compensation.

But with Black Box Analog Designs' posts in this thread, they let us know that the Density knob controls the calibration point of where the tube begins to saturate, which means that you can leave both tubes at 50% and IGNORE them, and ONLY tweak the Density knob instead. I REALLY wanted to try that!

So I decided to re-install HG-2 with just 2 days left of my trial.

Test #1: Using HG-2 with Logic Pro X's new Dual Mono Mid-Side plugin mode.

1. Insert plugin as Logic's new Dual Mono mode, which inserts two Mono instances as a single plugin:


2. Switch Logic to mid-side mode, which calculates the mid and side signals and sends them to the two separate "dual mono" plugin instances:


3. Mute the mid, which bypasses the Mid version of the dual mono setup (and saves 50% CPU!) and makes the mid 100% DRY, and only processes the Side signal:


4. Tweak the Side plugin instance's saturation under the Side panel:


5. Step 5: REACT! OH GOD WHY THE f**k ISN'T THIS BUILT INTO THE PLUGIN BY DEFAULT!?!!!!!!!

With the above setup, I was able to take a track from flatness to an INCREDIBLE, WIDE, BEAUTIFUL 3D depth by only widening the sides through saturation.

Black Box Analog Design, TELL DIRK RIGHT NOW TO GET THIS DUAL-MONO MID/SIDE FEATURE INTO THE PLUGIN SOMEHOW! Possibly by having a switch that goes: Stereo, L/R, M/S. And then some way of controlling the L/R or M/S settings independently via the GUI whenever those modes are enabled. Because dude, this Mid/Side HG-2 feature deserves to be available to more than just Logic and Reaper users!!! I am blown away enough to use CAPS AND MULTIPLE EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!

Test #2: Using the density knob for adding closely level-matched saturation.

Reaction: This is incredible. I now only have to tweak the Density knob to change the saturation calibration and get it to saturate without affecting the volume much at all. That's EXACTLY what I wanted the first time I demoed this plugin. I didn't realize that the microscopic Density knob was important. But damn it's one of the most important knobs in the whole GUI. Now I can dial in the saturation without being affected by +1000 dB of gain boost at the same time and without having to CONSTANTLY lower the output gain anytime I add more saturation via the regular drive knobs! It's also a great way to back off the saturation without constantly juggling the three knobs (two drives and the output).

My revised reaction to the whole plugin is as follows:

- With Mid/Side capabilities, it takes on a whole new life and drastically expands its utility as a mixbus plugin. That NEEDS to be in the official version. It's a massive omission! Thankfully I was rescued by Logic Pro X's new Dual Mono feature, which gave me Mid/Side. But my heart goes out to everyone with DAWs that lack that feature. They're missing so much of HG-2's potential.

- Density is godlike. Everyone who demos the plugin must use that knob. It should have been much more prominent in the GUI. Like having a huge knob in the absolute center next to the LED bar volume meter. Screw faithfulness to the original hardware faceplate. This feature is massive and much more useful than the regular drive knobs. We want saturation, not artificial volume boosting. So adjusting the saturation calibration point is a much more efficient way of working (than juggling 3 knobs). In fact, come to think of it, I wish you had two Density knobs, one for the Pentode and one for the Triode, right next to their regular gain knobs! That would be amazing! Then we could decide how much we want of Even and Odd order harmonics, without affecting volume much! That should be added to the GUI, to be honest! It'd be great.

- The sound of HG-2 is exactly like my analog tube gear. They break up exactly like real, analog tubes. Having that level of warmth, gentle crackle and beautiful sparkle in the box is amazing. I no longer miss the tens of thousands of dollars of outboard gear I've been selling off. This HG-2 plugin is the closest I've ever heard to real, analog tube saturation.

- I am still missing the ability to solo the distortion/saturation to be able to tune it carefully. Hey, Black Box Analog Designs, I know how to implement such a feature. Get Dirk on the case! Here's how to add a "Tube Solo Listen" button: 1. Make a copy of the clean input signal (tap it from the post-'Input gain' knob stage). 2. Phase-invert that copy. 3. Mix that copy back in with the post-'Output gain' stage knob. The result will be that it cancels out the original signal, and only shows you the saturation and gain changes added by the tube emulation. So you'll hear ONLY what is being added to the original signal by HG-2. It wouldn't take into account the gain changes so you would hear more than just the saturation if you haven't matched the input and output gain, but that's pretty easy to match if you only use the Density knob. And it could even be programmed to "guess" at the average amount of boost being added by the tube circuit and subtract that from the signal to be compared, so that it would automatically somewhat level-match the "Tube Solo Listen" feature. But even without automatic level matching, it would be a very useful button to have! I've tried it out already by routing to a separate, phase-inverted bus to cancel out the original signal from the processed signal, and I found it very useful to be able to hear just the HG-2 saturation and make sure it only added clean saturation!

- So.. that's the updated review: Great tube sound. SEVERELY lacks Mid/Side mode (can be remedied with Reaper and the latest Logic Pro X, which both allow you to do mid-side with any plugin). SEVERELY lacks enhanced Density control. And it lacks a Tube Solo feature (which can be added if Brainworx truly wanted to).

^^^
...tell me about it, I was only going to use my voucher to get a freebie, but ended up with Fault, Sandman Pro and HG-2

Funny, that's the exact collection of plugins I just bought.

Fault and Sandman Pro are sound design dreams. I was pleasantly surprised. They enable insane buffer-fx based delays/frequency shifter effects (FabFilter's Timeless 2 is pretty close to the sound but I found that Fault and Sandman Pro were much more flexible and better sounding). Their Dent on the other hand isn't for me, and just adds harsh, digital bit-based distortion that sounds the same on all presets. Maybe great for the Drum and Bass crowd, but not much else. And it still did nothing that couldn't be done with better sound quality using FXpansion Maul, which offers both extremely digital and warm circuit-modeled analog distortion and tons of control and modulation. And G8 didn't touch a hair on FabFilter's Pro-G.

Well, guys, that's my updated review.

Fixing the greatest flaw in HG-2 (lack of Mid/Side) and discovering the Density knob was enough for me to buy it! I love how it does what my Culture Vulture Mastering Edition tubes should have done: Which is offer a huge range from transparent to distorted. Instead of just instantly distorting the way the Culture Vulture does. And I can still get a CV-like distortion by going all-out with the HG-2. I'm pleased with having this level of perfect tube emulation in the box.

Now, if they can just implement the three features above (A Mid/Side mode for drastically enhanced sonic palette, Two new, independent Density knobs next to the Pentode and Triode gain knobs for level-matched saturation for much more efficient workflow, and Tube Solo to be able to hear just the saturation), then we'd be golden with HG-2! Right now, it's 60% of the way to perfection. It has nailed the sound, but not the controls.

[jens]

Their Dent on the other hand is pretty much garbage, and just adds harsh, digital bit-based distortion that sounds the same on all presets. Maybe something for the Drum and Bass crowd, but not much else. And it still did nothing that couldn't be done better with a million other tools like FXpansion Maul, Decapitator, Trash 2, etc. And G8 doesn't touch a hair on FabFilter's Pro-G.

Totally wrong - again you are too quick to judge, buddy!

Dent can do wonderful, creamy analog-style saturation. RTFM.

[JohnnyA]

Their Dent on the other hand is pretty much garbage, and just adds harsh, digital bit-based distortion that sounds the same on all presets. Maybe something for the Drum and Bass crowd, but not much else. And it still did nothing that couldn't be done better with a million other tools like FXpansion Maul, Decapitator, Trash 2, etc. And G8 doesn't touch a hair on FabFilter's Pro-G.

Totally wrong - again you are too quick to judge, buddy!

Dent can do wonderful, creamy analog-style saturation. RTFM.

Analog-style saturation? So can everything else I listed above. Far better than Dent.

And as for Dent, I did "rtfm" (read the manual), but you didn't, honey-bunny:

"Dent is a radical distortion plugin with sinister intent. You won't find any sweet-sounding tube and tape emulators here! Great for both music production and cinematic sound design, Dent mutilates sounds at the wave cycle level for a twisted makeover. Six crippling bitcrushers, a sampling-rate mauler and signal clippers are just the tip of Dent's destructive iceberg." - Unfiltered Audio

Exactly like I said: Digital bit manipulation distortion. Gross sound. But some crowds will like it. Like the Ohmicide users in the Drum and Bass and Dubstep crowds. It probably kicks ass for that.

As for HG-2: The complaints still stand. I was only convinced about buying it thanks to Logic Pro X's new Mid-Side mode which works for any plugin. And the microscopic density control helped seal the deal. There are still some pretty big GUI limitations, listed in my post above, which hold the HG-2 plugin back from its full potential.

[jens]

Their Dent on the other hand is pretty much garbage, and just adds harsh, digital bit-based distortion that sounds the same on all presets. Maybe something for the Drum and Bass crowd, but not much else. And it still did nothing that couldn't be done better with a million other tools like FXpansion Maul, Decapitator, Trash 2, etc. And G8 doesn't touch a hair on FabFilter's Pro-G.

Totally wrong - again you are too quick to judge, buddy!

Dent can do wonderful, creamy analog-style saturation. RTFM.

Analog-style saturation? So can everything else I listed above. Far better than Dent.

And as for Dent, I did "rtfm" (read the manual), but you didn't, honey-bunny:

"Dent is a radical distortion plugin with sinister intent. You won't find any sweet-sounding tube and tape emulators here! Great for both music production and cinematic sound design, Dent mutilates sounds at the wave cycle level for a twisted makeover. Six crippling bitcrushers, a sampling-rate mauler and signal clippers are just the tip of Dent's destructive iceberg." - Unfiltered Audio

Exactly like I said: Digital bit manipulation distortion. Gross sound. But some crowds will like it. Like the Ohmicide users in the Drum and Bass and Dubstep crowds. It probably kicks ass for that.

As for HG-2: The complaints still stand. I was only convinced about buying it thanks to Logic Pro X's new Mid-Side mode which works for any plugin. And the microscopic density control helped seal the deal. There are still some pretty big GUI limitations, listed in my post above, which hold the HG-2 plugin back from its full potential.

It is really hard now for me not to stoop down to your level, but I'll tr my best. The marketing bit you quoted is just that - marketing blurb. What you quoted is NOT the Manual, even if you apparently mistook it for that (which already speaks volumes about your attention span, dedication, etc.).

Here is a quote from the actual manual:

Dent is a waveform workstation, a distortion that blends analog and digital traditions. It mixes many analog-style distortion techniques (soft clipping, wavefolding, rectification, bias) with digital destruction (hard clipping, bitcrushing, waveset processing). When combined with our cutting-edge modular modulation system, an unbelievable palette of tonal processing opens up.

And when they say "analog", they mean analog.

Here's more from that manual you apparently didn't read:

Soft Clip: The signal is saturated using a parabolic equation. This will actually affect the sound of the entire signal in a subtle way. This clipping is more pleasant and analogsounding.

I could show you some real world examples - but I want to give you the chance to find out yourself how foolish you come across here.

[JohnnyA]

Cut it out. I just reacted to your flippant and obnoxious "Totally wrong", "too quick to judge", "RTFM", "foolish", "stoop down to your level" personal attacks. What's your deal? Do you take pleasure in wasting your time attacking people? Now you come back with that huge blurb. I am not going to carry on discussing Dent in this thread with you. It's off-topic. And no, Dent isn't meant for analog distortion. It's built for ruthless, digital crushing. Exactly as it's described by Unfiltered Audio: "You won't find any sweet-sounding tube and tape emulators here!".

Taking some generic, off-the-shelf "analog-style" algorithms from http://musicdsp.org/ and slapping those onto a digital bit crushing plugin doesn't make it an exacting, analog emulation. And it cannot compete with the perfectly emulated tools for that task. Just as Unfiltered Audio themselves say about Dent.

If you want to carry on discussing dent (without me), have some respect and open another thread and link to it from here.

[jens]

1st of all: "foolish" and "stoop down to your level" I only wrote AFTER your rant. Don't try to turn things around, I really already start having seen enough of your weird antics (such as quoting marketing blurb (not even written by the developer himself, but by another company) and pretending it was the manual)

2.: you were the one to start talking about Dent in this thread. I only reacted to that

3.: I reacted to it because you already were ignorant and insulting when you first mentioned Dent.
("Maybe something for the Drum and Bass crowd, but not much else.". The way you said "Drum and Bass crowd" was clearly meant to be belittling to a) people who do Music in that sytle and b) People who happen to like Dent.)

[JohnnyA]

You'll obviously just keep going on and turning the thread sour, so I'll stop replying to you.

Now back to discussing HG-2!

[jens]

I will stop replying when I feel I have said what I needed to say, not when you desire so.

[JohnnyA]

PSA: For those interested in the follow-up to the feature discussion, we're currently having some very interesting discussions with Brainworx/brainrox (Dirk) and Black Box over at the Gearslutz release thread. We decided to talk there instead due to the severe thread derailing here at KVR. And since there's no point duplicating all messages here, I'll just point any interested HG-2 users there instead:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-pro ... st12464009

[MogwaiBoy]

So are they going to implement mid/side in HG-2 or what?

[kj.metissage]

No they're not.

[JohnnyA]

So are they going to implement mid/side in HG-2 or what?

Nobody knows yet. They said they're going to discuss everything. Both Brainworx and Black Box have now chimed in about the potential Mid/Side implementation method and all of my other suggestions, with comments like "I will pass on these comments and ideas to the team! It's worth talking with the guys about further."

We'll see what happens. Fingers crossed. Lots of users want to have Mid/Side mode. It's been the most consistent request on all pages of the Gearslutz thread. That, and having automatic level matching, which I also suggested a possible implementation for.

I really hope their discussions lead to deciding to add these simple, finishing touches to the plugin to greatly extend its sonic capabilities. The feedback in the thread has been overwhelmingly positive. People want these enhancements.

[jens]

We decided to talk there instead due to the severe thread derailing here at KVR.

That's what they call #alternativefacts... you really seem to be a compulsive reality bender...

Chances are Dirk wouldn't have been as friendly to you had he seen that you wrote things like

Taking some generic, off-the-shelf "analog-style" algorithms from http://musicdsp.org/ and slapping those onto a digital bit crushing plugin

about another product he sells.

(not saying he was entirely wrong when he called you "freak" though. )

[JohnnyA]

There pops Jens again. Always happy to see you. Chill out. I was discussing this with Black Box via KVR's private messaging. Due to the derailing here, we agreed it was better to do the public discussion on Gearslutz. Which is where I'll be returning now, so don't waste your time typing yet another petulant reply. It's unbecoming and a waste of everyone's time. Take care and may you find happiness in your life!