5" Studio Monitors

[miketurn]

A topic that has been discussed many times, I am also looking at studio monitors and just like with all my other posts I am rather confused about what to purchase in the future.
I have been looking at 5" speaker models, which I am sure will upset some people

1.) Main purpose is for mixing / mastering in a home environment on my own personal music
2.) All different music styles and some may be more bass and kick heavy
3.) From what I have read 8" speakers are where you need to be to get the proper bass response or you need a sub.
4.) I don't have a large room so I don't want large 8" speakers and I don't really see myself buying a sub for my floor.
5.) As I mentioned room not large so would have to be near field monitors
6.) I will have to save up but, as far as a price range I guess would be about $300
7.) I ideally want something that is going to be a rather long lasting purchase

I have been bouncing around for a while, but currently I am considering the JBL LSR305 monitors.
(I have mentioned this before, but I cannot stand when a product that I am looking at all of a sudden has multiple price increases, when no updates to the product have been made. When I first looked at these I believe they were something like $240-$250, now they are about $285)

Okay I digress, I guess some questions I have would be the following.
(Sorry for the long post but I am having a bit of a tough time explaining things at the moment, getting a little tired)
A.) It appears in all the research that I have done that the main thing most people speak of when they talk about studio monitors is bass response. Considering all that I have mentioned above, would decent bass response be achievable? Will it really be that bad?
B.) People say once you know your speakers, you can mix anything on them, so they learn to compensate for not hearing the bass frequencies. I imagine the more mixes you do and reference them on other speaker systems you start to learn more and more what bass frequencies you are missing and you learn to compensate for them?
C.) If the above is true, not to say that this makes it right, but if you purchase a set of descent studio monitors and they don't give you proper bass response, now a days your typical person is not going to have speakers as good as your monitors, in fact probably a lot worse, so if you are can't get your bass right on your monitors, is the average listener / listener's gear even going to be able to notice this?
Like I said that does not make it right, and also I know that the better your low end is mixed the better it will translate on most systems, but when you think about it... and also don't forget about mp3 / website compression. The only downside I guess would be if you were in the club (poppin bottles ) and all of a sudden the DJ plays your song on a big expensive system, and uh-ho your mix sounds like Shhhiittt
D.) If the above is true, then how can you get an accurate reference of your bass, if other systems worse than your monitors cannot produce them either?
E.) Can anyone share some of their best practices to achieving proper bass mixing with smaller 5" monitors? More in the sense of compensating for them while mixing, rather than hearing them on cheaper systems (which I have already done some research on) but really I am willing to learn more about both if anyone has anything special share.
F.) I hesitate to ask for recommendations on monitors because really I would imagine I will just get a list of all of the ones I have looked through. I guess the only responses that would probably be helpful is if someone specifically has had the JBL LSR305 monitors and really disliked them for a particular reason?

Well I should probably wrap it up...
Thank You to anyone who takes the time to read all of this

[Aiynzahev]

Hey buddy

I'll chime in here as I've had some experience with a number of monitors, from ones in your price range to one's much higher end. I also mix my own music, EDM / trance style stuff, so I've been feeling my way around the whole bass issue for a long time and I'm in a much more comfortable place now with mixing than I used to be.

I'll try to keep this short (edit - well that didn't work out) so it's easier to follow

1) You have to start somewhere. If you can demo some speakers, do so. Otherwise try to get them on an easy returns policy and don't sweat it. I've been through a load of speakers and every one of them has taught me something about myself, my room and mixing.

2) Personally I don't buy the idea that if you have a small room you must use small speakers, but with your budget, small speakers are a good idea.

3) Good mixing technique will keep you out of a lot of bad situations, even if your speakers don't go down ultra-low. If you're dealing with dance music for example, you want to keep the low end simple. Many producers high-pass a lot, I high pass almost everything to some degree and I've seen producers high-pass the kick and bass a little too from time to time.

4) No matter what speakers I have, I'm always going to cross reference with a pair of good headphones. The best I've found personally for bass judgement is the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro, and they are cheap too. The bass in these is very powerful and I feel confident making decisions based on what they tell me, cross referenced with my monitors and sometimes another pair of headphones. The room is always going to be a limiting factor so good headphones are simply essential to me.

5) I find that I need speakers that can really KICK like a mule. I find it easier to compensate for a very punchy low end than a weak one. Also there's a fine line, I've heard some speakers that have such an artificially bloated low end to the point where it just sounds like constant boom or thud and that's not what I'm looking for either.

I did briefly own the LSR's, the 8" model. Personally I didn't prefer them. I felt they were weak when it comes to punch, and I couldn't really pick things apart in the other frequency ranges. They sounded awfully nice, just not in a way that seemed useful to me when mixing. I could probably make them work, but I came across a great deal on some older JBL's that were simply better in every way.

I do mix some projects on a small speaker, one that's in your budget range, the Mackie MR5mk3. All I need to do is make a rough mix on these, cross reference with my HD280's and then make some adjustments. My mixes will mostly come out quite well. I've had these for quite a while now and they did take a bit of getting used to. They lack the detail I've enjoyed with high end monitors, but what I've come to appreciate is their over-all presentation. They just work for me and I think they are decent monitors.

[ghettosynth]

E.) Can anyone share some of their best practices to achieving proper bass mixing with smaller 5" monitors? More in the sense of compensating for them while mixing, rather than hearing them on cheaper systems (which I have already done some research on) but really I am willing to learn more about both if anyone has anything special share.

I currently have Yamaha 5" monitors. At one point I didn't like them for the lack of bass response and replaced them with some 6.5" monitors, which I still like better, but, they're currently in the shop.

However, since I got them originally I've changed how I monitor. First, placement of rear ported speakers can be important, I've had the best luck getting them away from the wall, but, you still want to avoid the mid point horizontally or vertically in most rooms.

The shift that made a huge difference for me was learning to mix quietly. My volume is typically at slightly above table radio levels when I mix. With the volume lower the drivers distort less in the bass region.

I hate mixing with subs. It's hard enough to get good speaker placement with two speakers, let alone adding a sub into the mix.

All of that said, I make a clear distinction between mixing and tracking/composing/writing/whatever you call it. I have a pair of small powered PA speakers that are connected to my monitor controller and I engage them to listen while I'm tracking. They allow me to feel the bass. When I'm using those I care much less about room issues or sound in general, I just turn it up and jam.

I still prefer my 6.5" monitors, but that is because I'm not a fan of the Yamaha's in the high end. A friend of mine has the JBLs that you mentioned and I much prefer those to my Yamahas.

[wickfut]

A.) would decent bass response be achievable? Will it really be that bad?

Bass is achievable with a 5" driver (I owned a pair of transmission line speakers with 5" drivers that went sub 30hz cleanly) , but it's not achievable with a tiny mini monitor. If you want to know what it's like, put a high pass filter with a steep slope set to 65-70hz and listen to it. That's how everything will sound.

B.) People say once you know your speakers, you can mix anything on them, so they learn to compensate for not hearing the bass frequencies. I imagine the more mixes you do and reference them on other speaker systems you start to learn more and more what bass frequencies you are missing and you learn to compensate for them?

"Once you know your speakers.." - when you've A/B'd them with other speakers for reference you might possibly be able to guess where things should be at. Doing it without the reference would be like handing a blind person a paintbrush and saying that he'll somehow be an artist if he keeps at it.

C.) If the above is true, not to say that this makes it right, but if you purchase a set of descent studio monitors and they don't give you proper bass response, now a days your typical person is not going to have speakers as good as your monitors, in fact probably a lot worse, so if you are can't get your bass right on your monitors, is the average listener / listener's gear even going to be able to notice this?

People listen on headphones. Headphones usually have a far greater frequency response than most speakers.

Also "average listener" ? Do you get magic hearing powers when you buy your first compressor or something?

D.) If the above is true, then how can you get an accurate reference of your bass, if other systems worse than your monitors cannot produce them either?

too many variables to say what is true or not. Just because some powered speaker is marketed as a studio monitor it doesn't automatically grant that speaker with special abilities over a regular hifi speaker.

F.) I hesitate to ask for recommendations on monitors because really I would imagine I will just get a list of all of the ones I have looked through. I guess the only responses that would probably be helpful is if someone specifically has had the JBL LSR305 monitors and really disliked them for a particular reason?

If you're in the UK Gear4music has an amazing deal on a pair of JBL LSR6325P monitors. I'm listening to some hard psytrance on a pair right now and their midrange is spot on, the bass is punchy but nothing at all below 65hz so some tracks have silence where there should be a huge bassline. I don't think I could use them as my main monitors though, but some people manage fine on KH120s etc each to their own I guess.

If you want budget speakers, try and find a pair of sale Fostex PM1 or PM2. I think they're discontinued but some shops may still have a bit of stock they want to part with. They aren't the last word in detail but their 6.5" - 8" speakers have a lot of bass for the money. I picked up a pair of PM2 mk2 with 8" cones years ago new for £300 the pair. Not sure what they are now though.

[asnor]

BASS:
I have the LSR305's.
They have a shocking amount of low end.
I bought them paired with the LSR310 sub.
The sub is almost redundant.

PRICE:
They retail at $149 each.
So, the price per pair will fluctuate with sales, etc
$285 is still pretty decent, if that includes shipping.
I've seen the reds being blown out $200/pair, if you can stand the color.

OPINION:
I would buy them again.
I would probably skip the sub.

[chk071]

BASS:
I have the LSR305's.
They have a shocking amount of low end.
I bought them paired with the LSR310 sub.
The sub is almost redundant.

In a test i read, they said exactly that. Big plus for me.

[cryophonik]

My main monitors are my trusty old Yamaha HS80Ms (8-inch) with the matching sub. A couple of years ago I picked up a pair of the LSR305s as a secondary monitoring system when I was trying to mix an album. I run all of them through my Drawmer monitoring system, which allows me to use any combination of speakers/sub. The LSR305s do have noticeably less low end than my HS80Ms when A/B'ed, but I certainly wouldn't say that they're lacking in bass. They actually have very good low frequency response, but they really shine in the mids (i.e., where my HS80Ms are sorta lacking). Anyway, the price:performance of the LSR305s is pretty much unbeatable and I doubt you'll be disappointed.

[chk071]

[Mister Natural]

A.) It appears in all the research that I have done that the main thing most people speak of when they talk about studio monitors is bass response. Considering all that I have mentioned above, would decent bass response be achievable? Will it really be that bad?

it's not true that bass is "the main thing". Transparency and adaptability to your studio space is the primary consideration of any studio monitors. a shocking quality of bass is very possible. Not quantity.

B.) People say once you know your speakers, you can mix anything on them, so they learn to compensate for not hearing the bass frequencies. I imagine the more mixes you do and reference them on other speaker systems you start to learn more and more what bass frequencies you are missing and you learn to compensate for them?

people say a lot of things . . . some of them are true - some are not. Until that "people" sit in your room with your music, listening to whatever monitors you end up choosing; don't listen to whatever they might say.

C.) If the above is true, not to say that this makes it right, but if you purchase a set of descent studio monitors and they don't give you proper bass response, now a days your typical person is not going to have speakers as good as your monitors, in fact probably a lot worse, so if you are can't get your bass right on your monitors, is the average listener / listener's gear even going to be able to notice this?
Like I said that does not make it right, and also I know that the better your low end is mixed the better it will translate on most systems, but when you think about it... and also don't forget about mp3 / website compression. The only downside I guess would be if you were in the club (poppin bottles ) and all of a sudden the DJ plays your song on a big expensive system, and uh-ho your mix sounds like Shhhiittt

see Aiynz's note above; you need to cross-reference any mix with several different playback systems before the track is finalized. Earbuds, headphones, crappy Bluetooth speakers, your sister's car, etc. Make the mix sound good in as many types of transducers as you can and it will sound good in any club.

D.) If the above is true, then how can you get an accurate reference of your bass, if other systems worse than your monitors cannot produce them either?

1. focus on making good music
2. focus on making that music sound good - all the elements balanced
3. focus on getting that music "out there"- into the ears of as many people possible
4. worry about the bass
- in that order

E.) Can anyone share some of their best practices to achieving proper bass mixing with smaller 5" monitors? More in the sense of compensating for them while mixing, rather than hearing them on cheaper systems (which I have already done some research on) but really I am willing to learn more about both if anyone has anything special share.

practice, practice, practice . . . is the best practice to achieve a proper mix

F.) I hesitate to ask for recommendations on monitors because really I would imagine I will just get a list of all of the ones I have looked through. I guess the only responses that would probably be helpful is if someone specifically has had the JBL LSR305 monitors and really disliked them for a particular reason?

everyone raves about this model of JBL - they also rave about the Focal Alpha50s that I ended-up purchasing for my modest studio. I also rave about them. Repeat after me, "I will be happy with whichever of these two I buy". You will be.

Best of luck to you !

[Mister Natural]

DP

[Ichad.c]

Those JBLs are fine monitors, but test them if you can beforehand. Just because people's preferences differ, the 'classic' monitors like NS10's or Auratone 5C's are pretty light in the bass region and harsh in the mids - some like more dull monitors, some like them a bit hyped, no matter what you use - always remember to cross-translate i.e. listen to a mix on as much sources as possible.

Also remember that your monitors are in a room! If you have big monitors/subs in a small room, you will probably have to spend more on bass-traps just to get the room balanced. Oh, and the bass roll-off of monitors actually differ if the monitors are ported or not. Ported monitors add bass extension, but after that extension, the bass drops pretty fast. Non-ported doesn't have the bass extension but the bass rolls of much slower and smoother.

G'd Luck!

[EnGee]

2) Personally I don't buy the idea that if you have a small room you must use small speakers, but with your budget, small speakers are a good idea.

4) No matter what speakers I have, I'm always going to cross reference with a pair of good headphones. The best I've found personally for bass judgement is the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro, and they are cheap too. The bass in these is very powerful and I feel confident making decisions based on what they tell me, cross referenced with my monitors and sometimes another pair of headphones. The room is always going to be a limiting factor so good headphones are simply essential to me.

5) I find that I need speakers that can really KICK like a mule. I find it easier to compensate for a very punchy low end than a weak one. Also there's a fine line, I've heard some speakers that have such an artificially bloated low end to the point where it just sounds like constant boom or thud and that's not what I'm looking for either.

Excellent points and advices

My room is small about 3x3 m but it's almost filled with things. Anyway, I purchased Yamaha HS7 (I had Presonus E4.5 before) and I'm very happy with them. They are barely reflect the bass! So, if I have the choice, I would go for the HS8. The build quality is second to none! The dealer gave me 3 years warranty!

I thought before that of the JBL 305s but some people advised me to not trust the build quality. Also, they told me it is not really that flat like the Yamaha's. Anyway, I advise against the HS50 or the 5" because really there is no bass (plain and simple), IMO, minimum is 6.5" (HS7 is ideal first setup IMO, it is not that expensive and it is a very popular choice for small rooms).

Now, about the front or rear ported. The HS7 are rear ported but I put the monitors just about one foot far from the wall. I didn't bother adjusted the bass, and I don't have any artificial sounds or booms. The volume is at not high, but not low either. I can say comfortable listening that I can hear the smallest details and the bass (but the sub bass isn't audible clearly, that is below 50Hz).
I haven't used the headphones since buying the HS7! They have details in the sound and reveal the bad sound easily. My judgements about sounds quality has completely changed! But I had to learn the monitors by compare the same commercial songs with them and with other mediums (headphones, car stereo ..etc).

All I can say that I'm very happy with my purchase. It worth the saving and waiting

p.s. below is how I put them. I bought those woody shelfs instead of monitor stands:

my setup.jpg

[Topeznor]

Interesting.

I'm hunting for monitors as well and my room is also 3x3m (well, actually a bit more but non useable space since it's L-shaped, and also filled with things). Good to know that 7" monitors are not "too big" for such a room. I would have personally chosen front ported speakers to help with the bass resonances, but the good ones are usually more expensive.

I do also have home-made wooden monitor stands, lol

Congrats!

[EnGee]

If you mean the HS7, they are 6.5" monitors not 7"

[Aiynzahev]

EnGee

I have personally found bass much more focused and deeper when I put my speakers on Primacoustics pads rather than straight on the desk or even straight on speaker stands. This has been the case with every speaker I've had. Might be worth a try if you get a chance.