Will MPE affect your future plugin purchasing habits?

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EvilDragon wrote:Two hands and one foot to do what Rise can do with one hand or just one finger... doesn't quite add up IMHO. :)
Read better. If you had read better, you could have understood, first, that when the Rise need one hand, the system that I describe doesnt need require hands, but one hand also. Facts :shrug: Same goes for your other statements, obviously you understood very few of what I said. Or maybe I said it in a bad manner. Anyway.

Now I'll let this thread to the 'Rise uberalles' snubs. I might get a Rise someday, but I'll probably never think it's the alpha and omega of expressive playing. Questionning fanboys is always useless, I just wrote this for other readers possibly interested in 'expressive playing without a rise'. Ymmv, that what forums are for.
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Of course you can play expressive via common technics and pedals, sensors, wind controllers, whatever. But it is still all mainly monophonic then.
MPE is all about doing it polyphonic.
You CAN'T do that with traditionell keyboards.
Like bending 2 notes up and at the same 3 down....even at different speed per note.
Last edited by Cinebient on Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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^^^

That. You cannot do the stuff you mentioned with pedals and pitch bend polyphonically. That's a big deal, actually.


And not that I'm a Rise fanboy - I don't own one. But eventually, I probably will. :)

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Not that I did not mention Polyphonic Aftertouch ...
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There are other benefits like in MPE mode i can control f.e. the initial filter cutoff depending on where i hit the key(wave) on the Y axis....per note/key of course.
Or i can set MPE to off (still multi channel) and have always the same value, wherever i hit the key and then change it via Y axis slides.
Of course there is much more.
You really can just judge it if you played with these things some time.

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Lotuzia wrote:Not that I did not mention Polyphonic Aftertouch ...
Yes but that is just one polyphonic controller. In Rise you have more than that. Yeah yeah, macros, yadda yadda. It's not the same.

Try playing 3-4 notes and make them go glide in completely different directions and amounts. Not possible on a regular keyboard, at all, no matter how hard you wish it :)


EDIT: Good point by Cinebient about absolute position. With poly AT you always have to go through intermediate values to get to the point you wanted. With MPE you can just point on Y axis of the key to START from there. Polyphonically.
Last edited by EvilDragon on Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lotuzia wrote:Not that I did not mention Polyphonic Aftertouch ...
Still with MPE you have up to 5 dimensions which are polyphonic.

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As a Rise 25 user for some time, it's definitely different. The comparison to a keyboard is understandable, but the Rise really is a different instrument. As a result, a keyboard with poly AT and an expression pedal might do somethings better than a Rise, and the Rise will still do some things better than a keyboard. I never had a keyboard controller with poly AT, but what Lotuzia described made some sense. However, the Rise has poly AT and polyphonic pitchbend/vibrato at the same time, which might be more difficult to emulate in a traditional keyboard controller setup. I'm not sure that any keyboard can do double-stop bends like the Rise does, which is part of how that Marco guy is able to emulate a guitar so well. In some ways, the Rise feels like a MIDI guitar in a keyboard-like layout.

The experience of playing is different beyond just the expression. I hate that I can't just rest my fingers on the Rise "keys" without a note triggering like I can on a keyboard (i.e. resting your fingers on keys without actually depressing them). As a result, part of the Rise experience is getting used to kind of keeping your fingers up and plucking the keys. But again, it's a different instrument. I HATE that with the slide (side to side in case I'm confusing the terms) control at max, half-step legato gets interpreted as a bend and not legato playing. That means I need to keep that control closer to 85% at all times.

I also don't like having to change the setup in the Dashboard with no ability to save presets in either the Dashboard or on the unit. For instance, I have to remember that with Diva I have to turn MPE to off, communicate on channels 1 to 10 only, and set it to channel pressure, but for Equator or Strobe it's MPE on, channels 1-16 and polyphonic AT. Then I have to create 16 MIDI tracks in my DAW and route them to one instrument, because S1 doesn't support MPE. The plug-and-play aspect is sorely missing. Presets that could be saved and recalled from the unit would have alleviated this.

Another thing I'm not a fan of is that Roli seem very hung up on showing you videos on how cool the Rise is, but there's not a lot by ways of how to actually play the unit. Create some videos with tips and tricks for how to get the most out of the Rise. From basic DAW/instrument setup (their website has great instructions on this BTW - no complaints there) to performing with it. I'd love a Rise masterclass by Mr. Marco.

Some additional/traditional knobs and faders for more controls in a unit like this would have been awesome too! There's no way you'd want this to be your only controller. So right there, you'd probably be supllementing your current MIDI controller keyboard with this and flip back and forth between the two. This becomes a bit problematic as most instruments don't allow you to save different controller "MIDI Learn profiles." For instance, I can't have one Diva mapping for my System-8 and another for my Rise and flip between the two easily without having to rely on my DAW setup.

Now, some cons aside, it's a very cool instrument (as long as you think of it as a different type of instrument) and it's built like a tank. I think of it as keyboard-like, but think of it almost as a MIDI guitar. As a guitar player first and foremost though, that could be why. So aside from learning a new instrument and some pain from being on the bleeding edge of technology, it's really a fantastically cool little instrument.

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Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:As a Rise 25 user for some time, it's definitely different. The comparison to a keyboard is understandable, but the Rise really is a different instrument. As a result, a keyboard with poly AT and an expression pedal might do somethings better than a Rise, and the Rise will still do some things better than a keyboard. I never had a keyboard controller with poly AT, but what Lotuzia described made some sense. However, the Rise has poly AT and polyphonic pitchbend/vibrato at the same time, which might be more difficult to emulate in a traditional keyboard controller setup. I'm not sure that any keyboard can do double-stop bends like the Rise does, which is part of how that Marco guy is able to emulate a guitar so well. In some ways, the Rise feels like a MIDI guitar in a keyboard-like layout.

The experience of playing is different beyond just the expression. I hate that I can't just rest my fingers on the Rise "keys" without a note triggering like I can on a keyboard (i.e. resting your fingers on keys without actually depressing them). As a result, part of the Rise experience is getting used to kind of keeping your fingers up and plucking the keys. But again, it's a different instrument. I HATE that with the slide (side to side in case I'm confusing the terms) control at max, half-step legato gets interpreted as a bend and not legato playing. That means I need to keep that control closer to 85% at all times.

I also don't like having to change the setup in the Dashboard with no ability to save presets in either the Dashboard or on the unit. For instance, I have to remember that with Diva I have to turn MPE to off, communicate on channels 1 to 10 only, and set it to channel pressure, but for Equator or Strobe it's MPE on, channels 1-16 and polyphonic AT. Then I have to create 16 MIDI tracks in my DAW and route them to one instrument, because S1 doesn't support MPE. The plug-and-play aspect is sorely missing. Presets that could be saved and recalled from the unit would have alleviated this.

Another thing I'm not a fan of is that Roli seem very hung up on showing you videos on how cool the Rise is, but there's not a lot by ways of how to actually play the unit. Create some videos with tips and tricks for how to get the most out of the Rise. From basic DAW/instrument setup (their website has great instructions on this BTW - no complaints there) to performing with it. I'd love a Rise masterclass by Mr. Marco.

Some additional/traditional knobs and faders for more controls in a unit like this would have been awesome too! There's no way you'd want this to be your only controller. So right there, you'd probably be supllementing your current MIDI controller keyboard with this and flip back and forth between the two. This becomes a bit problematic as most instruments don't allow you to save different controller "MIDI Learn profiles." For instance, I can't have one Diva mapping for my System-8 and another for my Rise and flip between the two easily without having to rely on my DAW setup.

Now, some cons aside, it's a very cool instrument (as long as you think of it as a different type of instrument) and it's built like a tank. I think of it as keyboard-like, but think of it almost as a MIDI guitar. As a guitar player first and foremost though, that could be why. So aside from learning a new instrument and some pain from being on the bleeding edge of technology, it's really a fantastically cool little instrument.
I mean we are mainly talking about MPE itself, not specific controllers....well maybe now too :D
But like i said, the Rise (and other MPE controllers) can do exact the same like a "normal" keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch. You can connect pedals to it if you want too.
It's simply a matter of taste. I prefer the Rise surface for playing. Others might hate it.

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Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:As a Rise 25 user for some time, it's definitely different. The comparison to a keyboard is understandable, but the Rise really is a different instrument. As a result, a keyboard with poly AT and an expression pedal might do somethings better than a Rise, and the Rise will still do some things better than a keyboard. I never had a keyboard controller with poly AT, but what Lotuzia described made some sense. However, the Rise has poly AT and polyphonic pitchbend/vibrato at the same time, which might be more difficult to emulate in a traditional keyboard controller setup. I'm not sure that any keyboard can do double-stop bends like the Rise does, which is part of how that Marco guy is able to emulate a guitar so well. In some ways, the Rise feels like a MIDI guitar in a keyboard-like layout.

The experience of playing is different beyond just the expression. I hate that I can't just rest my fingers on the Rise "keys" without a note triggering like I can on a keyboard (i.e. resting your fingers on keys without actually depressing them). As a result, part of the Rise experience is getting used to kind of keeping your fingers up and plucking the keys. But again, it's a different instrument. I HATE that with the slide (side to side in case I'm confusing the terms) control at max, half-step legato gets interpreted as a bend and not legato playing. That means I need to keep that control closer to 85% at all times.

I also don't like having to change the setup in the Dashboard with no ability to save presets in either the Dashboard or on the unit. For instance, I have to remember that with Diva I have to turn MPE to off, communicate on channels 1 to 10 only, and set it to channel pressure, but for Equator or Strobe it's MPE on, channels 1-16 and polyphonic AT. Then I have to create 16 MIDI tracks in my DAW and route them to one instrument, because S1 doesn't support MPE. The plug-and-play aspect is sorely missing. Presets that could be saved and recalled from the unit would have alleviated this.

Another thing I'm not a fan of is that Roli seem very hung up on showing you videos on how cool the Rise is, but there's not a lot by ways of how to actually play the unit. Create some videos with tips and tricks for how to get the most out of the Rise. From basic DAW/instrument setup (their website has great instructions on this BTW - no complaints there) to performing with it. I'd love a Rise masterclass by Mr. Marco.

Some additional/traditional knobs and faders for more controls in a unit like this would have been awesome too! There's no way you'd want this to be your only controller. So right there, you'd probably be supllementing your current MIDI controller keyboard with this and flip back and forth between the two. This becomes a bit problematic as most instruments don't allow you to save different controller "MIDI Learn profiles." For instance, I can't have one Diva mapping for my System-8 and another for my Rise and flip between the two easily without having to rely on my DAW setup.

Now, some cons aside, it's a very cool instrument (as long as you think of it as a different type of instrument) and it's built like a tank. I think of it as keyboard-like, but think of it almost as a MIDI guitar. As a guitar player first and foremost though, that could be why. So aside from learning a new instrument and some pain from being on the bleeding edge of technology, it's really a fantastically cool little instrument.
More/less how I see the whole picture.
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Lotuzia wrote:
Assign Vibrato depth AND speed to polyphonic aftertouch ( Usually simply callaed a Macro, whether it is labelled as such, or it can be done by assigning several parameters to a single control in say a mod matrix). It will give you something similar to the first set of 2 controls you describe. Actually it's a bit different, because the values of the two parameters will react in a linear way, and not in an independant way. But sometimes, it will just give better results when actually playing, because this is exactly what you want, and it will be more difficult to achieve with independant controls ( Let's say it's part of a more global discussion about Macros VS separate controls)
With the Rise we are not talking about macros vs separate controls because it needs neither of them.

On a regular keyboard, vibrato speed and depth are 2 separate parameters and pitch in larger amounts (pitchbend) is yet a 3rd parameter.

The beauty of the Rise, is that pitch (vibrato speed and depth plus pitchbend) is controlled easily and intuitively without any assigned parameters at all. It is just your finger(s) on one integrated control surface and every preset automatically has fluid control of pitch... which is intuitive, nuanced and spontaneously decided in the moment.

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Lotuzia wrote:The Pitch Bend control can go easily to a 5th.
The pitchbend can go up a 5th... and all playing notes go up a 5th... oops... not the same.

But even if we are talking about monophonic playing, it is still nowhere close to the same.

Play a note, push the pitchbend up a 5th, then the next note is also stuck up a 5th. The pitchwheel is static and always has to be returned to neutral to get back to normal pitch. With the Rise, you can slide up a 5th, or 2 octaves, and every subsequent note is still its normal pitch.

Pitch is built right into the control surface instead of being a clumsy and monophonic add on.

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Cinebient wrote:Of course you can play expressive via common technics and pedals, sensors, wind controllers, whatever. But it is still all mainly monophonic then.
MPE is all about doing it polyphonic.
You CAN'T do that with traditionell keyboards.
Like bending 2 notes up and at the same 3 down....even at different speed per note.
Even for monophonic playing it is very different.

Rise: with 1 finger, on 1 note, you can control vibrato depth, speed, pitchbend, plus both Y and Z axis controls.

to equal that with a regular keyboard, that is 1 finger on the key with aftertouch, other hand on the pitchwheel, mouth on a breath controller, and both feet on pedals. Hehe... good luck with that!

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I'm just curious if Rise users have a problem that has stopped me from buying one. When I try to slide my fingers the fabric just bunches up under my fingertip. I have a really hard time getting to drag. That's basically the issue that is holding me back ... not MPE. I've watched tons of people play them and it doesn't look like they have the problem, but each time I've tried one it is a problem for me. I do have guitar calluses, including right hand tapping calluses. But nothing extraordinary.

And no ... I did not coat my hands with peanutbutter :)
If you have to ask, you can't afford the answer

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Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:I never had a keyboard controller with poly AT, but what Lotuzia described made some sense. However, the Rise has poly AT and polyphonic pitchbend/vibrato at the same time, which might be more difficult to emulate in a traditional keyboard controller setup. I'm not sure that any keyboard can do double-stop bends like the Rise does, which is part of how that Marco guy is able to emulate a guitar so well. In some ways, the Rise feels like a MIDI guitar in a keyboard-like layout.
What Lotuzia described does not actually make sense (even if it sounds like it does).

First - Poly AT is better than no poly modulation at all, for sure... but AT or Z axis is less valuable than X and Y axis because it is hard to play notes and press down while playing and have much control. AT in general is tricky... maybe you want to play a loud note, but not activate AT... or play a soft note and activate AT... and then try doing that with any speed.

X and Y axis are both more natural motions (especially X) and are unaffected by the initial force you hit the key with for velocity/volume.

Second - He was suggesting mapping both vibrato depth and speed to AT, and suggested that that is what everyone would want to do anyway... which is not so. I often want to control them separately and I am sure plenty of other people do too.

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