The most underestimated synths...

[Artvera]

Regarding ArtVera. I always thought Art Pyrite was a re-skinned synth originaly developed by HG fortune.

ART Pyrite is totally reworked Golden ASET by me and by Joe - Fretted Synth Audio.
Basic engine of Golden ASET was done by H.G.Fortune - it is true.
So it is not "only re-skinned" Fortune's synth. There is many new features which were not included in Golden ASET.

[sfd]

So, there can be no such thing as a poorly-made anything because 'it's all subjective'.
#NG: Don't Work; there's your logic and it's just not going to hold.
Is a $3 umbrella from Walmart, China-made POS which folds and breaks the first strong wind come up just as good as every umbrella?
So, some things are objectively better constructed. Tell me that's wrong.

Is art or music never a construction?
Is some moronic repetitive toddler-like drivel (but hey, A BEAT!) always equal to say Bach 3rd Violin Partita?

It seems like to me the people that like this argument have the perfect excuse to keep making drivel and feel great about it.

ANYWAY
There are many polished turds in popular music today, I believe.

porly made just means something doesn't meet your requests.

I'm not requesting or desire software that eats a lot of CPU.

Diva is high on the CPU and is in that sense paorly made.

Quality is a matter of what properites you're after and what purposes they are supposed to serve.

If, in your opinion, there're a lot of "polished truds" out there. It only means that those tuknes meets your expectations of what you consider as good music.

[wagtunes]

I don't understand why this whole concept is so hard for some people to grasp.

Vehicle A gets 23 mpg on the highway and 16 mpg in the city.

Vehicle B gets 37 mpg on the highway and 24 mpg in the city.

Vehicle B gets better gas mileage than Vehicle A. This is not opinion. This is fact proven by measurable results.

Beethoven's 9th Symphony vs Beer Barrel Polka by Jaromír Vejvoda

By all means, please show me the measurable results explaining which one is better music.

Really, you guys kill me with your snobbery and "My word is law because I said so" attitude.

[jancivil]

porly made just means something doesn't meet your requests.

Well I mentioned a Walmart umbrella that broke into piece first rainstorm.
It's a coincidence that I need something better made rather than throw 3 bucks in the trash, yeah?
That's just incredibly dumb.

And yeah, there is music that's just slapped together. If you lack the tools to discern the difference, that's sad.

[jancivil]

I don't understand why this whole concept is so hard for some people to grasp.

Vehicle A gets 23 mpg on the highway and 16 mpg in the city.

Vehicle B gets 37 mpg on the highway and 24 mpg in the city.

Vehicle B gets better gas mileage than Vehicle A. This is not opinion. This is fact proven by measurable results.

Beethoven's 9th Symphony vs Beer Barrel Polka by Jaromír Vejvoda

By all means, please show me the measurable results explaining which one is better music.

Really, you guys kill me with your snobbery and "My word is law because I said so" attitude.

I'm pretty sure I have yet to say 'my word is law' here.

YOU kill me with the attitude 'Here's my symphony, I worked x hours on it' with what would appear to be no clue as to what a symphony is, or how the instruments in such an arrangement work. How to articulate them rather than it be flat as a pancake, winds with no breath ad naus.

Yeah, I'M arrogant. You don't even have the respect for the form not to posture with it.

So, I would not waste my time trying to show _you_ what objectively is better in fine music vs coarse, then. My bet is you lack the tools for the discussion.*

By analogy, AGAIN: is music not constructed, for the purposes of, is it - here it is actually, your - argument, never constructed? You certainly aren't refuting that point. (*: I would think that Beethoven vs Beer Barrel Polka is if anything a good extreme case if not ad absurdum in service of my point.)

[wagtunes]

I don't understand why this whole concept is so hard for some people to grasp.

Vehicle A gets 23 mpg on the highway and 16 mpg in the city.

Vehicle B gets 37 mpg on the highway and 24 mpg in the city.

Vehicle B gets better gas mileage than Vehicle A. This is not opinion. This is fact proven by measurable results.

Beethoven's 9th Symphony vs Beer Barrel Polka by Jaromír Vejvoda

By all means, please show me the measurable results explaining which one is better music.

Really, you guys kill me with your snobbery and "My word is law because I said so" attitude.

I'm pretty sure I have yet to say 'my word is law' here.

YOU kill me with the attitude 'Here's my symphony, I worked x hours on it' with what would appear to be no clue as to what a symphony is, or how the instruments in such an arrangement work. How to articulate them rather than it be flat as a pancake, winds with no breath ad naus.

Yeah, I'M arrogant. You don't even have the respect for the form not to posture with it.

So, I would not waste my time trying to show _you_ what objectively is better in fine music vs coarse, then. My bet is you lack the tools for the discussion.*

By analogy, AGAIN: is music not constructed, for the purposes of, is it - here it is actually, your - argument, never constructed? You certainly aren't refuting that point. (*: I would think that Beethoven vs Beer Barrel Polka is if anything a good extreme case if not ad absurdum in service of my point.)

Yes, music is constructed. All music is constructed. Not in the same way, depending on the kind of music, but yes, all music is constructed.

That has nothing to do with whether that music is objectively good or bad.

In fact, the terms good and bad in and of themselves are so subjective that even using them for objective measurement is less than optimum.

Just because Vehicle B gets better gas mileage than Vehicle A doesn't mean it's a better or good vehicle. There are numerous things about a car that we can analyze such as safety, maneuverability and so on. All these things can be measured.

You can't measure the sound of music as it reaches the human ear and heart and determine if that music is good or bad, superior or inferior.

If I say I like UFO's "Only You Can Rock Me" better than Symphony no. 3, "Sorrowful Song", by Gorecki (considered by many to be the most boring classical piece ever written) does that make me a moron because I choose a rock piece that wasn't written in classical form (the only real music according to all the snobs) over that classical piece? Does that make me wrong?

You're going to tell me that Piece A is better than Piece B?

You want to attack my own composition skills? That's fine. You think I give a shit? I've had more successful people than you tell me my music sucks. You're opinion of me is not only irrelevant to this conversation but meaningless to me.

And you know what the best part of this whole discussion is? Because musical quality is completely subjective, you can tell me I'm wrong for the next 100 years and you're never going to change my mind and you'll never be able to PROVE quantitatively that you're right.

But by all means show me the mathematical formulas that make a piece of music great.

And then explain to me why there's so much crappy classical music running around, even by some of the greats.

Oh wait, that's just MY opinion too.

See how that works?

Un-f**king-believable.

[Ableguy1]

Geesh!

Lots of synth lovers here! I'm in the right spot

Aww man, that feeling when you talk only about synths for the entire thread, but then crack and have your only OT post near-immediately followed by this.

edit: seriously though, after this thing popping into my replies and seeing no synth chat all day, I'm totally up for further steaming into this debate brandishing a dictionary.

Haha! I really wasn't making a joke even though the convo did seem to de-rail a bit. Long time watcher, first time poster. this place sure gets heated!

[EnGee]

Well, to be honest! We (the participants in this thread who wrote their opinion of which Synths are underestimated) did as the title of thread ask! But then, some 'ubber' smart people came and began to 'philosophize' what is underrated and what's not and some others talked about what is good music or not!

Although off topic, I did wrote what I actually disbelieved in intentionally (sarcasm)! I don't believe in talents or God. I believe in hard work. Those great musicians did spent most of their lives 'concentrating' on what makes their music better! This concentration and commitments accompanied with a 'right' self criticism is what contributed for most masterpieces and good works.

[Armagibbon]

I don't understand why this whole concept is so hard for some people to grasp.

Vehicle A gets 23 mpg on the highway and 16 mpg in the city.

Vehicle B gets 37 mpg on the highway and 24 mpg in the city.

Vehicle B gets better gas mileage than Vehicle A. This is not opinion. This is fact proven by measurable results.

Beethoven's 9th Symphony vs Beer Barrel Polka by Jaromír Vejvoda

By all means, please show me the measurable results explaining which one is better music.

Really, you guys kill me with your snobbery and "My word is law because I said so" attitude.

Hey! Fun fact:
Did you know that most bad music doesn't even make it to print?

You can find bad art anywhere. Hell, go on and visit deviant art, I guarantee you'll find at least one ocean's worth.


If you're talking about differences between genres, well f*ck me, I'm barking up the wrong tree here. After all, it wouldn't be a genre unless SOMEONE thought it was good. Unless that genre is "bad music". Boy, doesn't that complicate shit?

[lnikj]

It is great to see philosophical debate alive and well on KVR, even if it has a habit of derailing threads. We have just had a long and interesting discussion of (the) meaning (of 'ambient') when somebody requested a good ambient synth.

Here we have an interesting digression into aesthetic judgement, with Jancivil apparently taking a Platonic line, Wags espousing a hardline Humean position, and Cron & .jon adding some sophistication with explorations of Kantian themes.

Great stuff

[cron]

Unless that genre is "bad music". Boy, doesn't that complicate shit?

I happen to be an entirely unironic connoisseur! Car-crash entertainment isn't only for TV. Here's an excellent place to start. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songs_in_the_Key_of_Z

And as a more contemporary touchpoint. While there are occasional flashes of genius and/or charm throughout the Songs In The Key Of Z series (Walking The Cow for the former, Cousin Mosquito for the latter) this thing is *bad*. We're not talking 'reality TV star makes a record' bad, oh no... this thing is truly, hypnotisingly terrible from start to finish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Teenage_Dream_Ended

See also this, which I will defend to the death as being among the greatest ever cover versions. I truly don't know a more joyous track. Everyone in the studio is clearly having the best time, and it's so infectious that I'm dancing from start to finish every play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oPhId9PQpo

[AnX]

Yeah, I'M arrogant.

Ignorant is a more accurate description.

[Armagibbon]

Unless that genre is "bad music". Boy, doesn't that complicate shit?

I happen to be an entirely unironic connoisseur! Car-crash entertainment isn't only for TV. Here's an excellent place to start. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songs_in_the_Key_of_Z

And as a more contemporary touchpoint. While there are occasional flashes of genius and/or charm throughout the Songs In The Key Of Z series (Walking The Cow for the former, Cousin Mosquito for the latter) this thing is *bad*. We're not talking 'reality TV star makes a record' bad, oh no... this thing is truly, hypnotisingly terrible from start to finish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Teenage_Dream_Ended

See also this, which I will defend to the death as being among the greatest ever cover versions. I truly don't know a more joyous track. Everyone in the studio is clearly having the best time, and it's so infectious that I'm dancing from start to finish every play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oPhId9PQpo

Bad covers are a thing? Damn, that's fun, gonna need more of that.

Bad music though? Non-music? Nah, it's still got all the structure and you can jam to it like you're in a bar with a karaoke machine. It's still got groove and something that sounds like organized musical intent, yea?

But then there's shit like the "soundtrack" to this game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0cvwnG0Ik

Yeah, who facerolled the sequencer and called it a day? I wouldn't even call it music, but by waggy's standards not only is it music, it's not even bad because that's subjective.

[cron]

I wouldn't even call it music, but by waggy's standards not only is it music, it's not even bad because that's subjective.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't read my thoughts about that on the previous page.

[.jon]

edit: btw "What someone thinks about them subjectively is not really interesting"... really? I personally find reviews far more interesting and useful than spec sheets!

Well, you're right it's not that simple. There's a world of difference between a KVR poster's "U-he is best!111 Repro omg hurrr durr!" posted after seeing everyone else posting the same, and a known expert opinion based on 2 months of use, which he/she expresses in full detail and backs up his arguments with the objective qualities and raises remarks based on his/her experience and knowledge that might not have been that obvious to the less skilled. A properly done review adds new, useful information to the spec sheet- "this feature is well implemented because...".

This in contrast with the topic of popularity