Navigating the darkness with music production.

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
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jancivil wrote:Sometimes the best thing will be to go against the grain/the expectation.
+1 !

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i could have spent all of this plugin time on death robots :dog:
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.

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chk071 wrote:What IS music then, if not a way to express what you feel?
We've been having that conversation. But, why does a construct that represents an idea have to be about what you "feel." While I don't think that you can completely divorce a production from your mood, you can certainly think about music as an intellectual exercise divorced from feeling.

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YA LIKE RECORDS, KIDS?

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murderous fools.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.

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One good thing about music
when it hits you
you feel no pain.


--B.M

Therapy, intellectual exercise, fun social activity...it can be all sorts of things. It's abstract, very personal, more culturally significant than sometimes we realize, and so on...

Tricky to sometimes talk about, though... :ud:

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well yes, if you don't want the masons to wipe out everything you know and cherish.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.

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There was some 'very sad' music for a scene with Penguin on a Gotham episode I saw on Netflix last nite.
It was almost a parody of sad music. It's one of the best-scored things I've ever experienced. Sound design is tops too.

There's science you can apply for feels, you know. Do a minor triad w. an add2 next to the third for that 'twinge', for instance. But scoring it right is also crucial, it could just sound puzzling with loud brass.

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V0RT3X wrote:Does music creation and expression help you through your daily struggles ? I think most of my better stuff comes out when I'm translating those emotions into music or sound.
No. It is PART OF my struggles.

I've tried to use music to externalize feelings. While feelings and music come together as i shape what I'm working on, the result is rarely equal to the intent.

i wish i could go into the studio and pump out well-crafted rage like Nine Inch Nails, but I'm not sure that's even possible. NIN "Broken" sounds like a flaming inferno of rage, but it's still heavily crafted studio work. Rage is not conducive to craft. Rage is conducive to things like broken keyboards, fractured bones, and bleeding on stuff (been there, done that; not going there again).

Maybe if i was a fantastic instrumentalist/lyricist I'd be able to pour that shit out of me into a few tracks of heavily distorted guitars, harsh/busy drumming, or impromptu rage-filled lyrics... but I'm not. I'm so prolific with words, you'd think lyrics would be my best thing. Nope. Lyrics are especially hard for me to create (without hating as trite, simplistic, cliched, etc). Plus, putting words to melody/melody into words... I have no clue how to make it happen. It just does or doesn't.

More importantly, I'm of the opinion that catharsis is bad (and I'm not alone on this opinion; studies show catharsis IS bad). The more miserable i get, the better for my heath it is to aim for the "beautifully sad" sound (to stick with NIN as examples: "And all that could've been", "The persistence of loss"). But that's if my aim is true, and it rarely is. Music I like either happens or doesn't. Once it's started, i can guide it.

My "daily struggles" include feeling irrelivant, useless, and other existential angst. Making music does NOT soothe this. I was raised by parents who were anti-nurturing of my artistic interests. Thanks to them, i see no gain from musicianship. Intellectually, this programming is shit. Emotionally, it's hard to kick. When i post a piece of music to SoundCloud, i feel somewhat elated and satisfied with myself. That feeling is great. It lasts a day or two (especially if I've gotten feedback). Then I'm back to "nothing i do means a damn; I'm going to die alone and useless in a place I despise".

Then there're the technical frustrations that make the process a PITMFA. I do not experience pleasure when i work. It's pain. The two posters talking about how music is the only thing in their lives that works.... ha ha ha, not in my life. For me it's "WTF is there no sound THIS TIME??" [more ranting deleted here]

i DO make music that is emotional. It comes from how i feel and influences my feelings. But it's definitely not a fun/escapist experience. It's work. It's extremely difficult, sometimes maddening, and i have to FORCE myself to do it. If i didn't, I'd just sit here wasting my time on the internet (where I'm never going to find answers to the shitty existence i was pushed into).

My music isn't a tool to "navigate my darkness". It is a sometimes-positive result of forcing myself to NOT FOCUS on (or pointedly IGNORE) my life. But I'm entirely constrained by the levels of obnoxious noise being spewed by the neighbors/vehicles/machinery outside (right now it's some kind of cutting machinery and an insane dog), and by the horrific heat in the summer (and AC noise). So even self-discipline wont save me from myself every time.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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"I want to sing like the birds sing, not worrying about who hears or what they think." - Rumi
~stratum~

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Jace-BeOS wrote:Then I'm back to "nothing i do means a damn; I'm going to die alone and useless in a place I despise".
i think, relatively, your expression of speaking in earnest about your experience is some of the most meaningful activity in the interpersonal sphere. as great a contribution as can be made.

sincerity, consideration, kindness may not be the point of a statement, only finding it a vehicle. while i post intending to instill or inspire something ..otherwise, i think often, its the people who take time to be sincere and recognise the ..less apparent needs for acknowledgement in other posters.. who are the most constructive.

(to save any rubbish posts about "well why are you a prick then" what i do is challenge the validity of alleged "knowledge" by continually proving the efficacy of what western civilisation doen't allege. my "beautiful era" thread could as well be called "look your heads are dum dum shite" because the establishment are greasy moronic fuckwit thugs wall to f**king wall. "space" thread for example, there's something you fuckwits missed for decades and one lone burke is still ahead of the entire game because the game is debilitation and for god's sakes its time this culture woke up and got tired of letting itself get shafted in the backside).
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.

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@Jace-BeOS:

You're not alone, I literally felt your words deep in my gut.
Gaslighting...is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity.

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Jace-BeOS wrote:
V0RT3X wrote:Does music creation and expression help you through your daily struggles ?
No. It is PART OF my struggles.

I've tried to use music to externalize feelings. While feelings and music come together as i shape what I'm working on, the result is rarely equal to the intent.
I can't imagine the result matching the intent. The idea has ideas of its own. But I wonder if there's anyone that gets a sharp and clear impression and just knocks it out. Stravinsky talked about hearing his Octet in a dream and he got up and set to work. (McCartney seems to have got up with the hook of Yesterday already formed.)
So maybe he had the chops and the mental clarity for that. It's like translation for me, sort of.
Jace-BeOS wrote: i wish i could go into the studio and pump out well-crafted rage like Nine Inch Nails, but I'm not sure that's even possible. [...]
Rage is not conducive to craft.
I think being very emotional and trying to work craft is going to be problematic in itself.
Jace-BeOS wrote: More importantly, I'm of the opinion that catharsis is bad (and I'm not alone on this opinion; studies show catharsis IS bad).
I can see that.
Jace-BeOS wrote: The more miserable i get, the better for my heath it is to aim for the "beautifully sad" sound (to stick with NIN as examples: "And all that could've been", "The persistence of loss"). But that's if my aim is true, and it rarely is. Music I like either happens or doesn't. Once it's started, i can guide it.
I suggest detachment from the self-pressure 'if my aim is true'. Expect to make messes. Embrace the record button and the delete key.
Jace-BeOS wrote: I was raised by parents who were anti-nurturing of my artistic interests. Thanks to them, i see no gain from musicianship. Intellectually, this programming is shit. Emotionally, it's hard to kick.
No wonder you want to process it or shit it out. I'm sorry. I was lucky in that draw.
Jace-BeOS wrote:"nothing i do means a damn; I'm going to die alone and useless in a place I despise".
Here's the thing, which probably won't do a lot for you to read it right now, but at least half of that sentence is pretty much true of every person to ever live. And it may seem glib to see it here, but detach from the notion of significance. In aeons of time, and space which no one will ever glimpse the end of, the stars in our sky long dead before we see them, nothing is very significant.

I'm great with the idea of dying in a hospital bed rather than on the street. The old movie cliché is, 'everybody dies alone'. Some maybe less so than others. I'm sure I will.
I don't make music to make a mark, I make it to have something to listen to that's simply all to my spec. I chose to pursue it to the detriment of most of what makes a life for a person, I'm that f**ked-up. :)
Jace-BeOS wrote: i DO make music that is emotional. It comes from how i feel and influences my feelings. But it's definitely not a fun/escapist experience. It's work.
Ok, for me work is escape. Right now Cubase Pro 9 has some issues which make me kind of avoid the f**k. I lost almost everything last year and I was able to parlay my license into that and my budget is reasonably zero for the duration, so we're in a similar boat I suppose.
Jace-BeOS wrote: My music [...] is a sometimes-positive result of forcing myself to NOT FOCUS on (or pointedly IGNORE) my life.
That's pretty much it for me. But I love to work anyway.
Jace-BeOS wrote: But I'm entirely constrained by the levels of obnoxious noise being spewed by the neighbors/vehicles/machinery outside (right now it's some kind of cutting machinery and an insane dog),
Poverty is a horror. Until I get a place to live, Berkeley Public Library is the one space I can use, composing on my MBP. My audio interface in my backpack attached to my wheelchair. Hang in there.

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xoxos wrote:Image
i could have spent all of this plugin time on death robots :dog:
This is one of my favorite posts of yours because it made me laugh out loud.
xoxos wrote:
Jace-BeOS wrote:Then I'm back to "nothing i do means a damn; I'm going to die alone and useless in a place I despise".
i think, relatively, your expression of speaking in earnest about your experience is some of the most meaningful activity in the interpersonal sphere. as great a contribution as can be made.

sincerity, consideration, kindness may not be the point of a statement, only finding it a vehicle. while i post intending to instill or inspire something ..otherwise, i think often, its the people who take time to be sincere and recognise the ..less apparent needs for acknowledgement in other posters.. who are the most constructive.
And this is one of my favorite posts of yours because of the kindness of it. Thank you.

I've conversed with a close friend of mine about how we never know what the silent observer might get out of our expressions online. It actually earned me two "IRL" friends (she being one). The way that many people (especially men) are pressured (especially by other men) into hiding their sincere feelings is another part of American culture i expressly reject.

V0RT3X asking the thread's leading question is a doorway to people connecting on personal and sincere topics, in a forum filled with people who have potentially very similar interests and mindsets (and very different ones, but the community is about the shared interest in music, and many musicians have other shared features). i like that.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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EdSevered wrote:@Jace-BeOS:

You're not alone, I literally felt your words deep in my gut.
:hug:

It's good to be not alone.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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jancivil wrote:I can't imagine the result matching the intent. The idea has ideas of its own.
That it usually does :hihi: i try to embrace it, but sometimes the idea isn't what i see myself as, in terms of what kind of musician i am. I used to make some pretty cheesy music back in my MOD/Tracker days. I've refashioned only one or two into modern works that i feel proud of. The rest... feels like someone else made them and gave me their faint memories of doing so.
jancivil wrote: But I wonder if there's anyone that gets a sharp and clear impression and just knocks it out. Stravinsky talked about hearing his Octet in a dream and he got up and set to work. (McCartney seems to have got up with the hook of Yesterday already formed.)
So maybe he had the chops and the mental clarity for that.
I suppose someone who has a genius level of competence with notation, theory, and instruments can do things like that. I'm not a genius. I was never motivated to explore potential genius, anyway. But my neurological deficits are centered around fine motor skills and dyslexia, it seems, so i don't think i had any such potential in me.

Other people clearly have had it. I don't necessarily like their output, but i admire the ability.
jancivil wrote:It's like translation for me, sort of.
Great analogy!
jancivil wrote:I suggest detachment from the self-pressure 'if my aim is true'. Expect to make messes. Embrace the record button and the delete key.
I try to do this. Thanks for the positive reinforcement :-)
jancivil wrote:
Jace-BeOS wrote:I was raised by parents who were anti-nurturing of my artistic interests. Thanks to them, i see no gain from musicianship. Intellectually, this programming is shit. Emotionally, it's hard to kick.
No wonder you want to process it or shit it out. I'm sorry. I was lucky in that draw.
I admit to feeling a lot of envy when i read interviews with artists and musicians who talk about coming from musical and artistic families. It seems more common to me than the people who grew up without family being a positive influence (or, worse, pushing against their interests). My family didn't point blank push violently against my interests, but there was passive-aggression, much redirection, and palpable disinterest. I ended up in IT, corporate environments... Did NOT belong.
jancivil wrote:
Jace-BeOS wrote:"nothing i do means a damn; I'm going to die alone and useless in a place I despise".
Here's the thing, which probably won't do a lot for you to read it right now, but at least half of that sentence is pretty much true of every person to ever live. And it may seem glib to see it here, but detach from the notion of significance. In aeons of time, and space which no one will ever glimpse the end of, the stars in our sky long dead before we see them, nothing is very significant.
I agree. I should've been more specific. I don't seek significance in a global, universal, or cultural scope. I gave up on that stuff long ago. I mostly never had unreasonable life goals. See below...
jancivil wrote:I'm great with the idea of dying in a hospital bed rather than on the street. The old movie cliché is, 'everybody dies alone'. Some maybe less so than others. I'm sure I will.
I don't make music to make a mark, I make it to have something to listen to that's simply all to my spec.
I'm mostly in alignment with this, too. I am only uncomfortable with inevitability of death in terms of being miserable about my entire life while dying on that hospital bed, alone.

(Though i sometimes think other people's music is so good i have no reason to make my own... but i kind of "have to" make my own!)

With "meaning" i refer to social/interpersonal things. Outside my personal space, i serve no purpose. No job, no function, no local friends. I'm on disability because i can't meet the scheduling and hierarchical demands of competitive employment or volunteering (sleep disorder, employer-crafted PTSD). I am not an entrepreneur in any way. My closest companion isn't a life partner and only spends a portion of her time with me. Meetup and OKCupid demonstrate that people in my area mostly don't think as i do. I don't want a family, just a feeling of belonging and value. Human, no?

It eats away at my sense of self; we have a culture of hate for people on social services. I'm both culturally and instinctively programmed to have a place, a people, and a function among others. Hence, blabbing on forums like this. It's a type of social connection, with people who are likely to share some interests and attributes. It's sometimes helpful, but it's not enough (no offense to anyone here), and can be an undesirable exposure.
jancivil wrote:I chose to pursue it to the detriment of most of what makes a life for a person, I'm that f**ked-up. :)
I never chose to pursue anything BUT the stuff that's supposed to make a life for a person (minus the breeding). I still ended up f**ked-up. Maybe you didn't do anything wrong.

Everything aside from the life basics was just hobby for me. I worked jobs, paid bills, maintained relationships, and had my hobbies on the side. As far as I'm concerned, i played by the rules... only to be shown that the "REAL RULES" were all of those ladder-climbing, people-abusing, sociopathic tactics that kept screwing me in the workplace or among "friends".
jancivil wrote:Ok, for me work is escape.
That reminds me of my dad. It's not how i function. I always hated employment (though i did it from age 15, because i followed the plot set out for me). Hobbies were an escape from someone else's goals for my life. Though my hobbies required considerable effort, i had personal motivation. Much healthier than, for example, the coercion to get good grades, punch the clock at exactly 8am, or carry out an employer's rotten policy. Work was an obligation. The arts was desire... until i went into an advertising design major at community college. I hadn't known that turning a hobby into work could kill it.

I wanted fine arts. My parents wanted marketability. Compromise: Advertising Design; the OPPOSITE of my ideologies. I hated it. Gen Ed was irrelivant and i had an awful English teacher (my class revolted against her). One class was run like an advertising agency, not as instruction. The misery of that, the English class, and the sheer work load for what used to be a pleasurable activity caused a snowball effect and i dropped out. I felt ashamed but it had killed my interests. It was just more work for someone else's profit.

If not for digital photography, I'd have quit art. Tellingly, i later got a 4.0 GPA in a 2-year photography program. Great instructors, focused studies on fine arts, personal interest.

Hobbies were my escape, but my hobbies used the same tools as my work (the computer industry). The computer is my primary tool for all my interests. Tech troubleshooting at home during my hobby time? EFF THAT! i want my own help desk/engineer to deal with the tech bullshit for me so i don't have to keep doing it during my hobby time! :x

i know there's a lot of overlap between computer musicians and computer techs. I feel like I'm a fringe element here when i say that I'm a "born again user". Computers earned my hate. During the recording of "the downward spiral", i read that Trent Reznor would encounter a tech problem, get pissed off, put someone else to the task of fixing it, and storm off to play games. He wanted to be able to come back later and get actual work done. Some people might say "what a spoiled and privileged ass", but, my reaction: "If only I could do that! I'm sick of tech bullshit! I want to get things done, not troubleshoot!"
Jace-BeOS wrote: But I'm entirely constrained by the levels of obnoxious noise being spewed by the neighbors/vehicles/machinery outside (right now it's some kind of cutting machinery and an insane dog),
Poverty is a horror.[/quote]

Agreed. And it is quicksand. The social services that conservatives are always trying to kill (because they don't need them personally) are at just the right level to keep me stuck without the ability to get back on my feet (the complete opposite intent, thanks to conservatives trying to make these services so bad that everyone will vote to get rid of the "waste of money").
jancivil wrote:Until I get a place to live, Berkeley Public Library is the one space I can use, composing on my MBP. My audio interface in my backpack attached to my wheelchair. Hang in there.
Damn. :( I'm sorry you're without your own place. I hope you have shelter, food, and such. :(
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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