Login / Register  0 items | $0.00 New
PurpleSunray
KVRian
 
678 posts since 13 Mar, 2012

Postby PurpleSunray; Fri May 19, 2017 10:18 am Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

stratum wrote:
Sclerosis and dementia is what managers are here for.

Well, that has to be the case, since they are the ones who are responsible to see that in spite of the fact that every developer in the team is pretty smart the whole system still has sclerosis and dementia .

Yeah. There are managers for everything. One managing the project telling you what to do, one managin the process telling how to do, one managing escalations and listening to you if think that first manager told crap .... kind of a preschool, but there are not 2 teachers (manager) and 20 kids (devs), but 20 teachers and 2 kids.
stratum
KVRian
 
1296 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Fri May 19, 2017 10:27 am Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

Yeah. There are managers for everything. One managing the project telling you what to do, one managin the process telling how to do, one managing escalations and listening to you if think that first manager told crap .... kind of a preschool, but there are not 2 teachers (manager) and 20 kids (devs), but 20 teachers and 2 kids.


That's another case where the system has sclerosis. Dementia originates from the cubicles and the noisy environment they cause, but the argument is that close collaboration reduces sclerosis in the system. Given the obvious conflicts inherent in the system, one solution is to abandon it completely and stay at home. That requires a job that can be done in total isolation. i.e. saying 'this module belongs to me, no one touches it, and I'm out of this damned place.' That's what I did, and it has worked so far.
~stratum~
User avatar
S0lo
KVRian
 
502 posts since 31 Dec, 2008

Postby S0lo; Fri May 19, 2017 10:32 am Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

JCJR wrote:Re unanswered email, when I was programming I tended to fall behind on mail because I was too busy.

After retirement, I check email maybe once a week and don't pay much attention to it. :) Mainly retrieve mail once in awhile to keep the mail servers from getting full, figuring on looking more closely one of these days. So if something interesting might be received, it might be a month or more before I'd even notice.

Maybe most folks are not so slack. Or maybe it is common that programmers don't pay close attention to email when busy. There are only so many hours in a day. Or more to point, there were a handful of people who always got immediate email replies, directly work related. Wasn't much time for sifting thru names not immediately recognized.


I'm a programmer and I do check my mail like 5 to 10 times per day. Not because I like it, but because I sit for an average of 10 hours per day infront of a PC (work and home combined). Still I do understand that many people may very much not have the same situation.

What I can't understand however, is when your in the middle of a conversation with someone, talking business or related, and he suddenly stops replying to your last email, without even a hint about a conclusion about the conversation. I've had this happen over and over, with multiple people!!. They simply ignor a question that I asked them in the last email. The funny thing is, after a few weeks or even a month. They email back as if nothing happened, talking about something else that THEY want this time.

I'd say if you don't want to close a deal or don't like an idea, just be a man and say it. Respect the person who is talking to you. Because while you ignored his email, he is there wondering, "What happend ?", "Does he like the idea?". "Is he not comfortable?" "Did I say something wrong?". "Did I insult the guy?!!". And these thoughts can go on and on for days until I finally give up, and know implicitly that your not interested.
PurpleSunray
KVRian
 
678 posts since 13 Mar, 2012

Postby PurpleSunray; Fri May 19, 2017 10:39 am Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

stratum wrote:That's another case where the system has sclerosis. Dementia originates from the cubicles and the noisy environment they cause, but the argument is that close collaboration reduces sclerosis in the system. Given the obvious conflicts inherent in the system, one solution is to abandon it completely and stay at home. That requires a job that can be done in total isolation. i.e. saying 'this module belongs to me, no one touches it, and I'm out of this damned place.' That's what I did, and it has worked so far.

We do actually work like that. Well, not a home, in total isolation. But that traceability thing requires clear ownerships. If you touch my compoment without first talking to me, i'm not gonna leave that damn place, but you will get trouble for sure. As said, it is way easier if there are only 2 kids inside the sandbox and 20 others try to make sure they have their own corner and don't need to fight about who get the excavator for today. Problems starts if there are 20 kids inside the box, with 1 excavator and the only teacher smoking cig atm.
stratum
KVRian
 
1296 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Fri May 19, 2017 10:56 am Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

Problems starts if there are 20 kids inside the box, with 1 excavator and the only teacher smoking cig atm.


You can configure git/svn to deny commit access to your repository, and while that doesn't stop others from building duplicate alternative excavators, it would be a less serious problem. Duplicate excavators are better than one that is broken.
~stratum~
PurpleSunray
KVRian
 
678 posts since 13 Mar, 2012

Postby PurpleSunray; Fri May 19, 2017 11:15 am Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

You can configure git/svn to deny commit access to your repository, and while that doesn't stop others from building duplicate alternative excavators, it would be a less serious problem. Duplicate excavators are better than one that is broken.

That's what I'm saying.
I know your working mode as well. It's nothing different to mine.
Only difference is that you need configure git/svn to deny commits and others build duplicate alternative excavators. I don't care about that shit. If you try a commit, alarm bell at PMO will ring and they will hopefull f*ck your ass 5min later. Don't need to configure anything. Duplicate excavators? Is that my issue? For what do we pay software architects for?
stratum
KVRian
 
1296 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Fri May 19, 2017 1:18 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

For what do we pay software architects for?


I couldn't actually understand exactly what you mean, but I have been in a similar environment where all the supposedly relevant processes were implemented and each team (5-10 persons) had a software architect, a team leader, and a project manager, assigned quality assurance and configuration management personnels. There was a separate group related to requirements engineering and testing for each project, and it still didn't work well, but they had a solution to mask all the nonsense that didn't work: Pay more than the competition, and people will shut up, and keep doing overtime until they burn out, and by the time they burn out, they will leave enough documentation behind for somebody else to carry on. In a way, the system works when you look at what's going on from their perspective; projects are delivered consistently without a major failure, even though they might be late.

I don't want to be there. I prefer duplicate excavators and kids that play according to the rules that they define themselves. It doesn't work well either but I haven't seen anything that does at a team level anyway. Doing everything alone is a lot easier and I try to approximate that method.
Last edited by stratum on Fri May 19, 2017 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~stratum~
PurpleSunray
KVRian
 
678 posts since 13 Mar, 2012

Postby PurpleSunray; Fri May 19, 2017 1:32 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

We don't really have teams. "Offices" but that is more of a group of ppl with same title than a team. I know what you are talking about, have been working on agile model and with multifuctional teams, and with matrix management and whatever. But I must say that I prefer the preschool sandbox model most. With that software architect on your team you have someone that wants to design your component (no way). The project manager will try to manage your day (no way). Teamleader will annoy your with daily syncup meeting because we wants to know what you are doing.
I don't need a team lead, i know that i'm doing. I don't need a software architet, i can design my component on my own (he should put components thogther and design systems and not meddle with developers responsiblity). Project manager should manages his project, not me.

As said, this really very different to making end-user software.
There the focus is making software, with a lot of feature, fast time to market and cheap.
For us the focus is quality, quality, quality. We talk about project cycles of 5-10 years (that's what it takes to develop a new Car model). We first implement a proof-of-concept, then throw it away and design the production system with what we have learned from the prototype ect.. pp.. there is nothing like "I need to commit that fix now!! code onwer is not here and SOP is tomorrow!" If you still had an open issue a day before SOP, something went seriosly wrong. Car manufacturers request that (and pay for it, end-user won't.. or Ableton Live would cost about 50k$ per license).
Last edited by PurpleSunray on Fri May 19, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stratum
KVRian
 
1296 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Fri May 19, 2017 1:50 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

Making end-user software would be great, but it requires existence of market in which you can be competitive enough to survive.

I'm no longer in the company I have mentioned. The one I'm currently working at is much more chaotic and not even managed for the most part. It's like the preschool sandbox model you have described, if that's the name for it. Kids play and most of the time there is no teacher around. It works because there isn't anything serious they are building, all the stuff they use is already built and just doesn't look the way the customer wants, and not integrated with what they have.
~stratum~
PurpleSunray
KVRian
 
678 posts since 13 Mar, 2012

Postby PurpleSunray; Fri May 19, 2017 2:03 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

stratum wrote:I'm no longer in the company I have mentioned. The one I'm currently working at is much more chaotic and not even managed for the most part. It's like the preschool sandbox model you have described, if that's the name for it. Kids play and most of the time there is no teacher around. It works because there isn't anything serious they are building, all the stuff they use is already built and just doesn't look the way customer wants.

I don't know if there is any name for that model.. "ultra-flat structure" maybe, where there is a CEO and everyone "reports" to him. It puts big responsibility onto everyone, because there is no teamleader to control your work and to hide failures to upper levels. Your upper level is top most already, so better think twice before you do that last minute friday evening commit into a procution branch. In some sense, you cloud say it is not managed at all, because there is nobody that controls what I'm doing all day long. But it's not really true, because if I decide to actually work instead of facebook or kvr, there are processes i need to stick to and really vigorous ppl that make sure I actually do.
stratum
KVRian
 
1296 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Fri May 19, 2017 2:14 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

I actually think it's much more transparent. Why, because the QA personnel is CEO, he can look at what you have commited, and there is nobody else you need to talk to, if there is a problem. Since there is no management functionality that can make a team really functional, the more serious work needs to be done alone, and then you are personally responsible for that; and that can only fail if the job involves knowledge about a domain you are not familiar with, and the CEO would already know that, there is no problem.
~stratum~
PurpleSunray
KVRian
 
678 posts since 13 Mar, 2012

Postby PurpleSunray; Fri May 19, 2017 2:26 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

Yeah, I think "personally responsible" is the key on all that.
My CEO won't review my commits, he is no coder. If my component crashes on a specific platform, that project lead or quality manager will talk to me. I could just ignore him, yeah, he is not my boss. Talk to CEO if you want anything from me.. but why I should I do that? It was my responsiblity, so I'm going to fix that. If that issue was that critical that comes onto CEO table, he will hear about that I immediatly addressed it, instead he beeing forced talking to me to make sure I address it. We had a couple of such "talk to my hand" devs . They started on like developing codecs in C, then switch to change UIs on XML, to write to automation scripts (no more production code) until they left.
stratum
KVRian
 
1296 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Fri May 19, 2017 2:39 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

If the CEO has no idea about what you do then it's much better to be in a place where all that process and management infrastructure is in place. Nobody would like to be in charge of a project that would last 2-3 years, result a large chunk of code that anybody else would get lost in, with a boss that is clueless about what's going on.
~stratum~
PurpleSunray
KVRian
 
678 posts since 13 Mar, 2012

Postby PurpleSunray; Fri May 19, 2017 2:56 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

The boss is clueless.
But the 5 architects, 10 project leads and 20 QAs that worked with me last 2-3 years, are not. They have a clue.
And when it comes to code, that problem isn't solved by having a boss that reviews commits or being in team. If I leave, someone else will have to dig through that lrage chunk of code I did during last years. Team or boss with a clue won't help here, the only thing I can do on that is to write code that is easy to undestand, instead of showing my::meta::<template>.ftw->is().this.doing skills.

project that would last 2-3 years

I will give you example - new project, runtime 2 years:
3 months, requirement engineering, i'm not involved on that.
3 months, prof-of-concept implementation. First try to code what they have engeered above.
3 months, testing and evaluation of the PoC. Refine requirements. i'm not involved on that.
3 months, project planning - system design specs and stuff is getting finalized. partly involved
<one year past>
3 months, i actually write code
3 months, pre-prodction testing, i'm not involved on that unless they find bugs
3 months, in-field testing, i'm not involved on that unless they find bugs
3 months, prepation for prodction, i'm not involved on that unless they find bugs (pls!! no :()
and finaly.... SOP: Start-of-Production. Now you can visit your Daimler or BMW or whatever dealer to buy my work.
stratum
KVRian
 
1296 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Fri May 19, 2017 3:19 pm Re: How to get in touch with a developer?

Recently I have written two apps that did the same thing. The first was during a time when I had no idea about the domain. It was a heavily concurrent app that your average college professor in Turkey is unequipped to teach anything about, about a domain for which I wasn't educated at all, with a customer who would just write specs that are a copy-paste of a leading product in that domain. In about 3 years it was finally working, but the code was a nightmare to maintain, even for me. I have scrapped it all and rewritten it while the boss balked at the idea but could do nothing about it. That's about 5 years I guess, and some more. Eventually we have something solid, but it's a bit late. That's how do you replace 'education' in so called 'developing' countries. Mess something up and do it again. The customer knows that all the processes and management infrastructure they have is ineffective in this situation, that's why they hand out the job to somebody else, anyway.
~stratum~
PreviousNext

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Return to DSP and Plug-in Development